How many criminals know to use Defense/Hollow Point ammo?

[MikeIsaj]

On the other hand, there are probably a lot of criminals who would rather their target survive, so they get charged with assault rather than murder.

You don't get it. Criminals aren't going to get caught. They are smarter than us and the corrupt police and courts. They know all the best ways to beat the system. Don't believe me? Just ask any criminal! (They usually tell me all about how brilliant they are while I'm booking them.)

Seriously, I don't think they give it too much thought. The average criminal isn't very smart. Don't mistake clever with intelligent. The ones that get caught usually do so because they were greedy or stupid. Usually a combination of the two. They aren't skilled shooters so they don't appreciate the differences in ammo. They rely on surprize and intimidation more than skill. If that fails them, they are in panic mode because the idea that anyone would not be afraid of them is beyond their grasp. This is when they get dangerous because they don't think from that point forward. In a level gunfight, they usually lose unless they get lucky.

 

[Len]

I think Lone Gunman has it right. [My experience is 15 years as a street/Emergency Center paramedic in Detroit.]

Of the dozens of GSW's [gun shot wounds] we saw, almost all were the result of using cheap, small caliber guns, using FMJ's. And as LG will tell you, it is very easy to spot FMJ's on x-ray, most of the time anyway.

He's also correct in stating that that's what we see most often...you don't usually see the results of lethal, "dead on the scene" cases.

One trend I have noticed...[especially since I'm still in health care, different field, but now dealing almost entirely with head trauma] is a change in the "types" of shootings.

It used to be that you'd see cases come in of gang bangers arriving with a bullet in the leg, butt, belly...and they'd usually survive. Nowdays, the vast majority of GSW's are execution style, many shots in the head, or dozens and dozens of shots everywhere. Here in Detroit, occurences of shootings are down or holding statistically, but lethality is up. Most shooting victims are now known to each other, or BG vs. BG. Why? I'm not sure...although I firmly believe that being a "shall carry" state has made the criminal element think twice about whether their potential "innocent" victims may now be carrying!

But it still holds that the guns/ammo in use by the BG's are usually as cheap as you can get.

 

[Preacherman]

A couple of posters have made the good point that one sees relatively few shooting "survivors" who were hit with .357 Magnum or .45 ACP in handguns, or with a decent shotgun or rifle round. In the prison where I work, many inmates have bullet wound scars, but few of those are from the above-mentioned weapons - most are from 9mm., .38, etc. Lesson - get a bigger gun!

 

[cookekdjr]

I cannot tell much (if any?) difference between a FMJ and JHP wound channel.

I have seen many 9mm, 380, 38 spec, 32, 25, and 22 wounds. The majority of these were FMJ's. Of the JHP's, I would guess that less than half expanded. Most were just deformed a little bit. 9mm usually penetrates deep and exits. 380's are more likely to not penetrate deeply enough to exit, even FMJ's.

Lonegunman's experience mirrors mine as a homicide prosecutor. Just yesterday I met with an ME and we went over the slides from a homicide victim's autopsy. I told her I had never seen a hp bullet that expanded when it only contacted human tissue. She said she had seen a perfect mushroom before, but most hp bullets merely deform a little bit. Most, in her experience, do not expand, although they may separate from their jacket the same way fmj's bullets often do.
As for what criminals usually carry, your average Atlanta thug carrys a cheap (and/or stolen) pistol he bought off the street. Usually the gun comes with a full magazine of ammo. Most crooks use cheap fmj ammo, but many do use jhp's. Alot of times it depends on what the gun's righful owner had in the gun when it was stolen...
-David

 

[33-805]

I have a friend, now retired LEO, who tells the story of being rather surprised when someone was relieved of a Colt Python, nickel with 2 1/2" bbl. After the discovery of such a high-tech (for the 70's ) piece, they opened the cylinder and found one .38 special, LRN and two 38 Long Colt type OLD LRN rounds. That was the total load. Economizing I guess...

 

[dolanp]

We have to ban "Walmart special" bullets because that's what the crooks use!

 

[BHPshooter]

I have seen only a handful of people shot in the torso with 45's and 357's. I presume this is either because criminals don't use these calibers, or if they do, the victim dies at the scene before I see them. Of the ones I have seen, I would guesstimate that about half these people lived to make it out of the hospital. These calibers make impressive wounds, penetrate deep, and usually exit...

I have seen many 9mm, 380, 38 spec, 32, 25, and 22 wounds. The majority of these were FMJ's. Of the JHP's, I would guess that less than half expanded. Most were just deformed a little bit. 9mm usually penetrates deep and exits. 380's are more likely to not penetrate deeply enough to exit, even FMJ's.

This is the first caliber "discussion" that I have ever read that has actually shed some light and firsthand knowledge on the issue. It's probably the best argument for bigger caliber that I have yet seen. It still doesn't beat placement, but it is a good argument.

I guess i have no choice but to be getting a 1911 soon.

Wes

 

[Aguila Blanca]

... what percentage of criminals that use guns actually know they should use hollow point/expanding/defense ammo in their gun?

1) How did we arrive at the opening premise that criminals "should" use any kind of ammo in their guns? Or, for that matter, that criminals should use guns at all?

2) Who cares? I would prefer not to be shot by either.

 

[jlwatts3]

Seems to me like FMJs would actually work better in the smaller cal. guns that criminals seems to favor. They would give them enough penetration to actually hit something important.

 

[pete f]

years ago while working in a gun shop.
DUDE! i wanna buy some 32 for my piece.

me Ahhhh what kind of 32 is it?

DUDE! How the F do I know, its a 32!!

me, does it have a cylinder or is it an automatic?

DUDE! It's an ole timey cop gun, it has a round thing you shove the bullets inta!

Me, ahhh ok well that is probably a .32 police positive, Yeah we have ammo for that. I hand him a box of .32 S&W short.

DUDE! .32 short? *** Aint you got something stronger than this, Hey what is that 32 magnum you got?

me, That won't fit in your gun sir,

DUDE *** the gun is a 32, the box says 32 i want it.

(tosses 20 bucks on the counter.)

Me yes sir the customer is always right.....


I always hoped that he would try to pound those 32 mags into the 32 PP cylinder and maybe one would go off.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The owner of my gunshop/range recently told me that he had a pair of gang bangers come in looking for 9mm ammo for a Berreta 92. He handed them the ammo, the "owner" of the gun handed it back to him and asked him to load the "clip" for him.

So the gunshop guy pops the mag, and something doesn't look/feel right. He's turning the gun over in his hand and he sees "8mm" on the barrel.

Yes, this citizen chose to exercise his RKBA by purchasing an 8mm movie prop gun on the street corner -- unbeknownst to himself, of course.

I always wondered if he ever caught up with the dude that sold it to him.

 

[c_yeager]

Seems to me like FMJs would actually work better in the smaller cal. guns that criminals seems to favor. They would give them enough penetration to actually hit something important.

Agreed. If i HAD to carry a .32 or a .25 it would be with FMJ as hot as i could find it. Actually getting to the important bits is a heck of a lot more important than expansion. Especially in light of some of the information on this thread concerning bullet expansion in human tissue.

 

[thorn726]

this is interesting- i think we're forgetting the two groups here=

1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers wh ojsut have stuff around for defense

one of you posted a long thing about not caring who they hit, causing mass confusion, etc- exactly, for group 1, plus the cost/ ease of attainment factor
group 2- is listening to all this gangster rap, and thinks it knows about guns, so might take the time to go hollowpoint, especially since they want to kill each other.

group 3 - its a toss up, who knows.......

and althuogh most criminals do seem to think they ll never get caught, they do also seem to be aware of how much more serious murder is-
and how much harder police will look for them
PLUS- is it only in movies we see all these robberies with UNloaded guns for that reason?
doesnt that happen??

 

[MAURICE]

I work for the Arkansas Dept of Correction. Specifically, a work release center in NW AR, housing non violent offenders. A few are in on poss of drugs and firearms. From what I have learned they use cheap guns with whatever ammunition can be had cheap, scrounged up, or stolen. I should mention that our unit is located within a city jail. When the police department brings in suspects in shootings the guns are always cheap as well. An incident that ocurred a few nights ago resulted in the arrest of one male who got into a gunfight with another (over a woman, of course). The male that was arrested-the other fled the scene- was using a HiPoint 9mm. He got off three rounds before a jam. FMJ bullets, IIRC. The suspect that fled was using a beat up old Mossy or 870, and was using 7 1/2 birdshot.
A shooting about a month ago was done using a Jennings .22

Cheap and disposable is apparently the name of the game.

Edited to add:
Double Naught Spy is correct about bangers not being concerned with bystanders. One of the shooters from the other night was firing in the direction of small children. They were having to scramble to find cover.
He was charged with committing a terroristic act.

 

[fistful]

1)criminals who use guns for crimes (robbery etc)
2)criminals who use guns against each other (gang on gang violence)
ok make that 3- the big dealers wh ojsut have stuff around for defense

isn't that really the same group?

 

[No_Brakes23]

Someone mentioned that gangsta rap will often include references to hollow-points.

As a fan of gangsta rap, I have to chuckle at the Hollywood/VideoGame niavity involved in the lyrics. But then again, the basic idea is to create a rhyme, hence the interchangability of magazine with clip. Glock, Tec, (As in Intratec Tec-9), fo-five, (.45ACP) and Beretta, all make for good "cinema" as it were, and they rhyme well, so they get used a lot.

From Notorious B.I.G., this section of Gimme tha Loot is riddled with sillyness:

"...before you get your grave dug
from the main thug
.357 slug
And my ni**a Biggie got an itchy one grip
One in the chamber, 32 in the clip
Motherf**kers better strip
yeah ni**a, peel
before you find out how loose steel feel
from the Beretta
putting all the holes in your sweater
The money getter..."

And on it goes...gangsta rap has lots of references to cheap firearms, "Mercury-tipped bullets" feeding watchdogs gunpowder, Black Talons, laser sights, night vision, etc, etc, etc.

But gangsta rap is a cartoonish reflection of criminal life, not an accurate depiction of it. It is no more an indicator of what criminals do than an issue of Marvel's Punisher.

 

[countertop]

I had an uncle who was a bit of a drug addict (and petty criminal) and died a few years ago. When cleaning out his apartment after he passed away we found a box of .38S&W (which I still have). It was interesting (and solved a lot of problems) cause at one point complained to my dad that his gun wouldn't work. My father told him to bring it to him (without ammo) and so thats what he did. It was a cheap ass .38 spl (the typical Saturday Night Special) and there was nothing wrong with it though. However, knowing he was a heavy user of hard drugs (and not wanting him to be caught in some crime carrying the gun) my dad told him it was busted and that we would dispose of it.

We could never figure out what was wrong until we saw the old box of .38 S&W.

Turns out - best we can tell - he bought the gun and they sold him the wrong kind of .38. HAHAHAHA

What is frightening though is that he had a whole box of it (well, minus 6 rounds) but it was marked for the sale of individual bullets. The hand written sales sticker shows a price of $1.50 a bullet and it carries a NC tax stamp on it. He lived in Northern New Jersey and best as we can tell, never once visited North Carolina.

Its pretty touch to find a .38 S&W gun these days (mostly they are late 1800s break tops) but I keep the ammo around to both remember him and as a curisoity thing.

 

[jason10mm]

From my time at the medical examiner, I can tell you that there are WAY more factors involved in GSW homicide/suicide than caliber. Shot placement is paramount, as suicides routinely kill themselves with .22s to the head. Time to get care is also important, as internal bleeding may not kill you instantly, but will eventually. Obviously, in a self defense shooting, eventually won't cut it.

I have seen the local mexican mafia using hollow point .45acp for executions, but 9mm, .38, and 32 are the most common random shooting calibers. Most rifles are hunting calibers like .270 and 30-30. Shotguns are the same, hunting loads rather than dedicated man-killers, aside from police shootings.

I have seen folks that looked awefully similar to gang members at the range. While they are usually goofing off, trying to impress their buddies/girlfriend, the mere fact that they are there implies that they have some basic skills including reloading, ammo buying, and perhaps even marksmanship.

In a red state like Texas, I suspect that a great many gang members have some sort of military or hunting family background and probably know more than what they learn on TV or the radio. I'm sure a serious gang enforcer would be quite well trained, particularly where it counts, MINDSET!

 

[Tom Servo]

This is why the Makarov is a good "car gun." If somebody steals it, they're going to straight to Wal Mart for ammo.

"Yo dog, I need some (insert gangster lingo) ammo for my piece."

"Sure. Um...says '9x18' on the slide. I think that's 9mm. Try these."

"Homie, this says, '9x19'"

"Yeah, um, makes bigger holes, right?"

"Yo, that's straight. Thanks for helpin' a G out, bro."

Hopefully he'll shoehorn the Parabellum ammo into it, and then try to use it. Natural selection at work. Might be even more ironic if the clerk could get away with selling the doofus some .40 or 10mm for even bigger holes.

(This is loosely based on a conversation I once had with a clerk at Galyan's [now Dick's] where he told me that the .357mag would do a better job through a .357SIG barrel, saying, "it'll make bigger holes.")

 

[fistful]

No Brakes,

I agree with what you had to say. I hope you didn't think that I was implying that rap is a realistic picture of criminal behavior. I would just like to re-emphasize the point of my post. To wit; if rappers have heard of hollow-points, and try to sound like real, dangerous criminals by claiming to use them, that would imply that the community at large (America, urban centers, the hood) is also aware of the obstensible greater lethality of hollow-points.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I have a friend who listens to hardcore rap and I'm exposed to it occasionally (not by choice ). A lot of anything weapons-related is just thrown in there for menacing measure. I've heard everything from Tec-9's to "15 teflons in my clip".

People exposed to it might be familiar if the word "hollowpoint" is brought up...perhaps even fathom that they're more dangerous...but they won't likely know how or why. Even this remedial nugget of knowledge can make it that much more dangerous.

 

[No_Brakes23]

if rappers have heard of hollow-points, and try to sound like real, dangerous criminals by claiming to use them, that would imply that the community at large (America, urban centers, the hood) is also aware of the obstensible greater lethality of hollow-points.

Good point.

 

[Gunwalker.44]

My guess is that they use whatever ammo is in the "hidden" house gun that the bgs steal when you aren't home. There is no safe hiding place from bgs and children.

 

[NMshooter]

This thread brings back a few memories...

I was amazed at the number of folks who would come in to the shop looking for something that would fit in some rusty old .38 S&W revolver.

Usually when they saw the price on the box they changed their mind.

Even LRN .38 S&W is a bit expensive.

Once had a man try to explain to a friend of mine a problem he was having with his revolver. He could not understand why it would not work. After all, as he said, ".22 + .22 = .44, no?"

Definitely agree with Mike about the criminal attitude...

 

[countertop]

Following up on NMshooters and my earlier posts, here's a picture of my Colt Commando Spec in .38 Special along with a display of .38 S&W and .38 Spl rounds