Oohrah
Member
Combat load for Garand was Cartridge belt and two banderlers
How much ammo would soldiers carry?
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rkh
member
In addition to being extremely practical, the barrow can offer endless hours of wholesome family fun on those rainy post-apocalyptic afternoons.
Behold the barrow master:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc7dG2hm_HA
Behold the barrow master:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc7dG2hm_HA
Some of you guys need more imagination to envision the hypotetical scenario I proposed. The scenario is TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it).
I don't envision a strong LEO presense in this scenario. Face it, the LEO's did not do anything during the LA Rodney King riots, and that was real!
What if that trucker that was beaten during the Rodney King riots was your father or your son. Would you want to walk into that mess to save him with only a handgun? Remember the roving bands going from neighborhood to neighborhood in that riot, burning down homes? Well I read about one neighborhood in the Hollywood Hills that blocked off their street and stood guard with long guns. The cops new about it and did not discourage them, and that was in Callifornia.
You don't have to take real life examples too far to imagine this scenario. What if our country became as lawless as third world countries are in reality? Say it can't happen here? Why not? Anything is possible. I lived in LA during the riots. The thing that struck me most was how quickly things broke down. What if one or more of our cities was nuked? What if a EMP took out every circuit in your household, ie no running car. What if electricity and running water were disrupted with no end in sight. What if there was no gasoline for the foreseeable future.
This thread was started looking for information from ex-military about how much ammo could reasonably be carried. A lot of you are hung up on the hypothetical situation and need to let your imaginations run a little bit. Or read Matt Bracken's latest book, Domestic Enemies, which is totally plausible.
Limeyfellow
Member
If I had to bug out without a car or truck, I guess I would take the horses from across the road.
rkh
member
^^
I don't think it matters if the police presence is strong or not. If you have to walk any significant distance through an urban environment, you will eventually cross paths with a cop, and he will notice your rifle.
If you want to talk Mad Max, that's fine too; but I'm still not sure that a rifle is a wise choice. Desperate people will see your rifle and they will covet it. I suspect the key to surviving as an urban refugee is to be as inconspicuous as possible.
All bets are off if we're talking about violent riots or zombies, but for general lawlessness a concealable handgun is the way to go.
I don't think it matters if the police presence is strong or not. If you have to walk any significant distance through an urban environment, you will eventually cross paths with a cop, and he will notice your rifle.
If you want to talk Mad Max, that's fine too; but I'm still not sure that a rifle is a wise choice. Desperate people will see your rifle and they will covet it. I suspect the key to surviving as an urban refugee is to be as inconspicuous as possible.
All bets are off if we're talking about violent riots or zombies, but for general lawlessness a concealable handgun is the way to go.
Open carry is legal in my state.
If it got bad enough, I would go to my rifle.
If it gets illegally confiscated, oh well.
That's why I own more than one rifle.
In the LA riots, people were looting, carrying away TV's right in front of LEO's. The LEO's did nothing.
If it got bad enough, I would go to my rifle.
If it gets illegally confiscated, oh well.
That's why I own more than one rifle.
In the LA riots, people were looting, carrying away TV's right in front of LEO's. The LEO's did nothing.
rkh
member
I'm not sure where you live, but are you saying that you wouldn't face legal problems if you strapped on your AR and took a stroll down Main Street Israeli reservist-style?
If that's what you're implying, I'm pretty confident that you're mistaken. You might get tagged for brandishing, or perhaps disorderly conduct, or possibly even assault. I know of no major city that allows for unrestricted open carriage of long arms.
If you want to test the hypothesis, I'm all for practical experimentation. Doll up like Rambo and go for a stroll downtown. Then let us know how you fared.
rkh
member
A couple more points:
So you would turn around, walk home, and grab another rifle? If you've got that much time, why did you bug out in the first place? I can't think of many circumstances where one would bug out from a stocked home without an extremely urgent reason for doing so.
Dealing with an out of control mob is probably the hardest task a law enforcement officer could ever face. They can't be handled like ordinary arrests, and you can't blame the officers for not attempting to storm into the sea of enraged looters. Trying to arrest everybody would have been suicidal. Its a shame the LAPD wasn't more aggressive about gassing the crowds, but that's another story.
Don't mistake the LAPD's restraint in coping with rioters for general apathy.
So you would turn around, walk home, and grab another rifle? If you've got that much time, why did you bug out in the first place? I can't think of many circumstances where one would bug out from a stocked home without an extremely urgent reason for doing so.
Dealing with an out of control mob is probably the hardest task a law enforcement officer could ever face. They can't be handled like ordinary arrests, and you can't blame the officers for not attempting to storm into the sea of enraged looters. Trying to arrest everybody would have been suicidal. Its a shame the LAPD wasn't more aggressive about gassing the crowds, but that's another story.
Don't mistake the LAPD's restraint in coping with rioters for general apathy.
BigSoundRacing
Member
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- Feb 2, 2007
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- 202
I lived in LA during the Rodney King riots also, and I was amazed at how quickly things broke down, the cops hunkered down and watched as neighborhoods tore themselves apart – this town is primed for the next round of chaos.
Living in the urban jungle, my objective is to carry as much as I can and be a stealthy as possible to not draw attention from LEO or Zombies. None of my gear is camo, it is all black or tan or covered with a large coaching jacket. I keep enough in my car to get me out of town quickly, or on foot or hunkered down on the side of the road for three days.
Car – always above 1/2
Two gallons water plus smaller bottles
Six MRE meals
Semi-auto with 500 x .223 and eight mags
Chest rig with camelback and butt pack, small backpack long enough to conceal my semi-auto
Level IIA
Be safe, BSR
Living in the urban jungle, my objective is to carry as much as I can and be a stealthy as possible to not draw attention from LEO or Zombies. None of my gear is camo, it is all black or tan or covered with a large coaching jacket. I keep enough in my car to get me out of town quickly, or on foot or hunkered down on the side of the road for three days.
Car – always above 1/2
Two gallons water plus smaller bottles
Six MRE meals
Semi-auto with 500 x .223 and eight mags
Chest rig with camelback and butt pack, small backpack long enough to conceal my semi-auto
Level IIA
Be safe, BSR
Titan6
member
The problem here is people are analyzing how much you "need" vs. how much you could "carry". I think you have the answer for how much you "can" carry. Only you know the particulars of your situation and how much you "need". The amount the military carries is really irrelvant to your question as military units act in concert as part of a team and conduct combat operations, something you are not currently positioned to do. The amount you need to carry is really a question only you can answer.
Roadwild17
Member
My Load out RIGHT NOW is
AK with 7 rounds (1 in the gun, 6 in a crappy mag holder),G17 w/ 3 mags, and my 3 day BOB.
AK with 7 rounds (1 in the gun, 6 in a crappy mag holder),G17 w/ 3 mags, and my 3 day BOB.
30 cal slob
Member
Nomad said:
lol.
well, i guess i'd better get a tacticool vest to put all those bug-out mags in.
30 cal slob
Member
rkh said:
Open carry of an EBR is legal in Virginia if you have a valid VA carry permit.
Open carry of non-EBR's and all handguns is legal in VA to anyone who can legally possess them.
Not advisable in CT, though. State Board of Pistol Permit examiners made up their own "laws" poo-pooing OC.
rkh
member
30 Cal,
I would still advise against tooling around Richmond with an EBR in tow. If a prosecutor can show that your scary gun caused public inconvenience or alarm and was likely to provoke violence, you're on the hook for disorderly conduct. There are probably a few other nuisance-type laws that also serve to discourage carriage of EBRs in urban areas, but I'm no expert on VA law.
I would still advise against tooling around Richmond with an EBR in tow. If a prosecutor can show that your scary gun caused public inconvenience or alarm and was likely to provoke violence, you're on the hook for disorderly conduct. There are probably a few other nuisance-type laws that also serve to discourage carriage of EBRs in urban areas, but I'm no expert on VA law.
686+
Member
BigSoundRacing,
from what I learned, the upper echelon did not want anything to get out of hand. All LEOs who trucked in their own gear and were ready to get proactive, were sent to watch large malls that were way out of the way of the problem areas. Rummor has it that those cops brought their RV and had a bar-b-q..., but that's just rummor
Rummor also has it that the national guard units stopped by to borrow ammo and mags and get a good meal, but that's just rumor too.
I lived in LA during the riots, one thing that came out was how many of my neighbors were armed. One thing though, I have a feeling you could loot all you wanted but if you were armed they would confiscate your gear in a hart beat. (And then let you go on your way with your loot.)
from what I learned, the upper echelon did not want anything to get out of hand. All LEOs who trucked in their own gear and were ready to get proactive, were sent to watch large malls that were way out of the way of the problem areas. Rummor has it that those cops brought their RV and had a bar-b-q..., but that's just rummor
Rummor also has it that the national guard units stopped by to borrow ammo and mags and get a good meal, but that's just rumor too.I lived in LA during the riots, one thing that came out was how many of my neighbors were armed. One thing though, I have a feeling you could loot all you wanted but if you were armed they would confiscate your gear in a hart beat. (And then let you go on your way with your loot.)
rkh
member
If you want to talk to somebody who has actually lived through a complete breakdown of national social order, head over to the warrifles forum and look up "FerFAL." He'll talk your ear off about his experiences during the Argentinian economic collapse.
Ask him what he thinks about the idea of hauling a rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammo around a semi-lawless town. I'll bet he's got an opinion on the matter.
Fantasizing about zombies is one thing, preparing for realistic scenarios is another. I apologize if I came off as brash, but some of the proposals that I've seen on this thread are totally ridiculous.
stay safe,
rk out
BADUNAME13
Member
rkh... I know FERFAL well... Ask him about when he used his PARA FAL...
And that's in a LESSER situation than the poster asked about!
And BTW, for the NON absolute SHTF that you are talking about...
that's what my folder AK is for.
I pulled it out at the range, and this cop shooting next to me about unloaded in his pants. he said "I never would of suspected it"
It looks kinda like this:
And that's in a LESSER situation than the poster asked about!
And BTW, for the NON absolute SHTF that you are talking about...
that's what my folder AK is for.
I pulled it out at the range, and this cop shooting next to me about unloaded in his pants. he said "I never would of suspected it"
It looks kinda like this:
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
For what a SHTF situation would probably look like in reality, FerFAL's account of life in post-collapse Argentina is very informative. (Disclaimer, I know nothing about the hosting site, but I can't find the articles where they used to be.)
Added on edit: rkh, you beat me to it!
Regarding the question in the OP, some good answers have been given to the question of what a soldier would carry, but probably don't have a whole lot of bearing on the deeper question. I think the questions of "what tools for defense?" and "how much ammunition for same?" would really depend more on how far you had to walk, what the terrain is like (open or close-in, flat or rugged, dry or marshy, etc.), what the weather is like, how much other provisions you needed to carry to sustain you/your family. Also important is the likely profile and M.O. of potential attackers; in the "victim deselection" process, will it be more helpful to keep a low profile, or to go high-profile for a deterrent effect? Is the ability to move fast and quietly more important than the ability to pull off an Australian peel? Etc.
In some cases, a lightweight carbine or pistol, a magazine or two, a pair of running shoes, and good cardiovascular conditioning would beat a double loadout with all kinds of load-bearing gear stuffed to the gills.
Added on edit: rkh, you beat me to it!
Regarding the question in the OP, some good answers have been given to the question of what a soldier would carry, but probably don't have a whole lot of bearing on the deeper question. I think the questions of "what tools for defense?" and "how much ammunition for same?" would really depend more on how far you had to walk, what the terrain is like (open or close-in, flat or rugged, dry or marshy, etc.), what the weather is like, how much other provisions you needed to carry to sustain you/your family. Also important is the likely profile and M.O. of potential attackers; in the "victim deselection" process, will it be more helpful to keep a low profile, or to go high-profile for a deterrent effect? Is the ability to move fast and quietly more important than the ability to pull off an Australian peel? Etc.
In some cases, a lightweight carbine or pistol, a magazine or two, a pair of running shoes, and good cardiovascular conditioning would beat a double loadout with all kinds of load-bearing gear stuffed to the gills.
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There's a really simple way to find out how much ammo you can, in reality, carry. Grab your pack, throw a bunch of ammo in it, and go on a day hike. Vary the amount of ammo and repeat until you have your answer.
As an added bonus, the more you do this, the bigger the number gets.
As an added bonus, the more you do this, the bigger the number gets.
Aaryq
Member
Well first off, in that situation, I would be assuming I'm out of the Marine Corps and back home in ND, otherwise if I bugged out, I would be letting my Marines down and when Law and Order is re-established, I'd either be behind bars or dead for desertion. That said, bugging out would be low on my list of things to do, especially when I can control entry into my house. Bugging out on foot would be damned near impossible. I have a 14 month old and in June I'll have a newborn plus my wife. Now if this was some time in the future and the kids were older than 7 or 8, it might be possible. To meet all of the criteria for your situation, I'll assume the kids are 8 and 9 years old. I would take with me my ALICE pack, Military Surplus Deuce Gear (Load Bearing Vest <LBV>, Cartridge Belt, 2 Canteens, First Aid Kit, Drop Holster, etc), Ka-Bar with a holster, my AR-15 (the one I'm buying when I get back from Iraq), and my Ruger P89. I would carry 9 30 Round AR15 magazines, and 2 P89 Magazines (10 and 15 rounds). My ALICE Pack would have water, chow, 150 rounds of 9mm, and anything else heavy. My wife would carry the clothes and blankets, and the kids would carry the light stuff.
It's not crazy because my family and I go out on hikes from time to time. Before my wife was pregnant, we'd both carry packs. We weren't wearing our tin foil hats and practicing for when "they" come, we just enjoy getting out in nature. When my kids can walk for more than a few miles we'll take them out too (until then, strollers will do). Anywho, I could hump with a heavy pack and good boots all day long. The concern is my family. Our pace would depend on them.
Like I said, bugging out would be the last thing I would want to do. It would be my LAST resort.
Taking part in the ammo vs clothes arguement, beans bullets and band aids (and clothes). That's my stand. Something to eat, something with which to defend yourself, something to keep you healthy, and something to keep you warm. I don't side on either extreme. A good combo of the too will be ideal.
It's not crazy because my family and I go out on hikes from time to time. Before my wife was pregnant, we'd both carry packs. We weren't wearing our tin foil hats and practicing for when "they" come, we just enjoy getting out in nature. When my kids can walk for more than a few miles we'll take them out too (until then, strollers will do). Anywho, I could hump with a heavy pack and good boots all day long. The concern is my family. Our pace would depend on them.
Like I said, bugging out would be the last thing I would want to do. It would be my LAST resort.
Taking part in the ammo vs clothes arguement, beans bullets and band aids (and clothes). That's my stand. Something to eat, something with which to defend yourself, something to keep you healthy, and something to keep you warm. I don't side on either extreme. A good combo of the too will be ideal.
cheygriz
member
EXACTLY!
And the military also provides food and water re-supply for it's troops, as well as ammo resupply.
And if you die from hypothermia, dehydration or starvation, you're just as dead as if you had run put of ammo in a firefight and been shot.
Ammo is a very important component of survival gear, but it's ONLY ONE of many, many components. How many ways can you think of to die other than violently??
For all these, I'm stating what I'd carry on my body; I'd have as much ammo as possible additionally stashed on my bike/in my bike carry bags or in the pull wagon which my wife or I would be pulling (food, clothes, kids). Each of us would likely only be carrying 30-40lb, max, on our backs, and preferably under 250lb of gear total, because it'll tire you out quick to haul that much crap around. I'd have at least 200 additional rounds elsewhere if I'm Never Coming Back and it's a serious SHTF scenario where I may not face peaceful environments for some time to come (3+ days).
About 5 magazine's worth plus one in the gun.
5+1 mags worth
8 or so mags
10 en bloc clips
10
So basically, somewhere or around 100-200 rounds, if I know I'm going to have to face some hostiles. If that's not enough for one or two small confrontations, no more will do me any good. I'm just one man, and can't carry more than that.
About 5 magazine's worth plus one in the gun.
5+1 mags worth
8 or so mags
10 en bloc clips
10
So basically, somewhere or around 100-200 rounds, if I know I'm going to have to face some hostiles. If that's not enough for one or two small confrontations, no more will do me any good. I'm just one man, and can't carry more than that.
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