How much do you trust your powder measures?

[ExMachina]

I reload handgun ammunition on a Lee Turret using a Lee Adjustable Charging bar.

Normally I load low-medium pressure loads in 45 and 44 calibers. I know that the powder charge that gets dispensed can vary, and that the motion of the press is enough to affect the final charge. So, I try to be consistent with my porcess and assume (based upon random samples) that I've been getting charges to +/- 0.2 grains.

Recently I began working up some "hot" 44 special loads and decided that a digital powder scale would be a good addition for quickly checking each charge before it went into the case. Well, measuring each and every charge was eye-opening to say the least

The charging bar itself is very consistent on its own--I can throw charge after charge and get zero variation. However, in the turret cycle (and now that I've included a moderate but firm crimping step when I cycle the press) I find that the variation in the powder charge can vary by as much as +0.6 grains (depending on how much the previous case "catches" in the crimping die).

As a workaround, I've resorted to the tedious (but accurate) process of: 1)charging the case 2)emptying the case 3) recharging the case 4) then bullet seat and crip. Repeat. This is slow, but I don't mind it too much since I'm only loading 50 or so of these hotter loads (not 200-300 of my standard 45 ACP).

So, apart from cautioning everyone to be very aware of factors that might cause variation in charges, I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can reduce my charge variation and increase my throughput.

Also, what kind of charge variation do most folks put up with when they are loading 100s of cases at a time?--would I be better served by moving to a progressive press (where the powder measure stays put)? Should I charge separately??

 

[Josh45]

As a workaround, I've resorted to the tedious (but accurate) process of 1)charging the case 2) emptying the case3) recharging the case 4) then bullet seat and crip. Repeat. This is slow, but I don't mind it too much since I'm only loadg 50 or so of these hotter loads (not 200-300 of my standard 45 ACP
I'm thinking of even).

Belive it or not, I did this. I actually used a trickeler to dispense the amount of powder I needed into the Lee Safety Scale. It was the first time I started loading so I wanted to see the amount. It gave me an idea visually of how much needs to be.

Then I tried the Auto Disk. It does spin a bit BUT! I checked the 6 loads I made with it and they all came in at the same weight. I will charge then check then recharge then seat and crimp. I don't care if it takes me a bit longer. I rather be safer than sorry.

If you want to speed up stuff, Then I would get a powder dispenser that stood still. How ever, I have no experience with one and can't really offer any advice with that.

 

[chhodge69]

I found the adjustable charge bar to be inconsistent throwing charges of Unique at +/- 0.4g When I switched back to the standard disk That range dropped to +/-0.1g from my target.

From your description it sounds like your powder is bridging - especially since jostling the rig will increase your charge. I would suggest you either experiment with different powders and your charge bar or switch back to the disk. You can drill out one of the disks you don't use to get the right charge for you.

The Lee Perfect Powder measure is VERY consistent - more so than the disks. If you don't mind charging off the press give that a try.

 

[Old krow]

Also, what kind of charge variation do most folks put up with when they are loading 100s of cases at a time?

I use an RCBS Uniflow with a baffle. I've gotten different variations with different powders. It's normally in the .1-.3 gr range.

If I need to load something hot, odds are it's not in large numbers so I'll set the PM a little low and trickle the rest in. I'll throw the charge into the pan, set the pan back on the scale, and trickle in the 1/2 gr or so.

 

[MCMXI]

How much do you trust your powder measures?

110%!!

I use Redding 10X and BR-30 powder measures on both of my progressive presses and have baffles about half way up the reservoirs. I dump the powder about ten times or more to settle the powder in the reservoir, check the charge on a scale and off I go. When I'm done, I check the charge again just to make sure and it's always dead nuts on. I could live with +/- 0.1gr but I don't have to.

 

[Jumping Frog]

The adjustable charge bar (ACB) can be very consistent or dangerously inconsistent. It all depends upon the size of the charge and the type of powder. For example, very small charges can be subject to bridging. Flake powders meter less consistently than ball powders, etc.

There is no substitute for throwing and weighing a good sample size of a specific powder and charge to see how reproducible that specific combination is. In generalities, I've found dropping 25.5 grains of H110 to be very reproducible with the ACB, while dropping 4.0 grains of Clays is not reproducible at all. I would never even consider using the ACB for a new load if I hadn't measured n=30 charges and know where I stand.

 

[cfullgraf]

I agree with 1858.

I have a Redding 10-X, RCBS Uniflow, and a Midway indespensible.

I find the key is to operate the measures the same every charge thrown once the powder column is settled.

 

[gamestalker]

I've always used a single stage press and scoop into the scale, so I don't see vaiations in the same manner you might. One thing I have taken notice of over the years though, is how much one lot number will vary from the last. An example is when loading 20.0 grs. of H110 the scoop with one lot will be just to the top, while the next or previous lot will be heaping at 20.0 grs. Every time I see those extreme variations in powder lots, I think about reloaders that don't use a fail safe, and rely soley on a volmetric measurement. Pretty scarry stuff!

 

[cfullgraf]

I've always used a single stage press and scoop into the scale, so I don't see vaiations in the same manner you might. One thing I have taken notice of over the years though, is how much one lot number will vary from the last. An example is when loading 20.0 grs. of H110 the scoop with one lot will be just to the top, while the next or previous lot will be heaping at 20.0 grs. Every time I see those extreme variations in powder lots, I think about reloaders that don't use a fail safe, and rely soley on a volmetric measurement. Pretty scarry stuff!

Not just with H110/W296.

All of measures have micrometer adjusters on them. I record the setting at each session so that it is easy to come back to the next time I load that cartridge/load combination. I see a small variation from session to session (same lot) and a larger variation from lot to lot.

I have my theories as to why, but no good information to support the theories.

Yes, a scale is a must for checking the powder measure settings.

 

[CZ57]

I've been using the same RCBS Uniflow for 20 years. It's as accurate today as it was when new. I have a LEE Pro Auto Disk for my Lee Classic Turret press and like all of the LEE's I've seen, it leaks powder.

 

[1SOW]

When I tried the Lee Adjustable Charge Bar, I didn't get consistent drops with the powder and loads I use. I tried solutions mentioned in posts on the forum with no improvement. I don't need it, so I quit using it.

I have used the LEE Disc System for many thousands of rds. With the powders and loads I'm using the Disc system is boringly accurate to less than .1 grain. Years of accurate drops leads me to trust this system. The word "system" is the key. The RELOADER can still make mistakes, and I try to stay aware of that problem.

 

[MCMXI]

All of measures have micrometer adjusters on them. I record the setting at each session so that it is easy to come back to the next time I load that cartridge/load combination. I see a small variation from session to session (same lot) and a larger variation from lot to lot.

I have my theories as to why, but no good information to support the theories.

Yes, a scale is a must for checking the powder measure settings.

cfullgraf, I do the same thing i.e. record the micrometer setting for every powder/load combo, and like you, I see small variations from session to session. I'd really be interested in your "theories". Just this past Friday I was assembling a few hundred .45 ACP rounds using a 230gr bullet from Rainier and 6.2gr N340. My notes listed 30.15 on the micrometer but I had to dial it in a little to 30.08 to get from 6.3gr to 6.2gr. The adjustment only took a few minutes but it had me wondering why the same volume weighed 0.1gr more. The volume is the volume is the volume, so my thought is that either the mass of the powder is changing (humidity?), or gravity is varying slightly (due to?) or atmospheric pressure is varying slightly. Maybe I need to use my Kestrel NV4500 to record atmospheric pressure at each session ... hmmm ... good idea!!

 

[cfullgraf]

1858,

Here are my theories for why the volume changes. Just note, I have not really studied my micrometer numbers and I do see inconsistencies when the numbers are compared to the theories.

1. The moisture content of the powder changes. Humidity could be the cause.

2. Over time, some of the solvents dissolved in the power evaporate.

3. Humidity may affect how the powder settles. (static electricity, moisture in the powder kernel's dust coating, etc).

4. Variation in zeroing the scale. I guess i could dust off my back up scale and compare weights sometime.

Interestingly, once I get my powder measure settled in, I do not see a change during that particular loading session so, changes happen over time.

I wonder a bit about the changes in volume but it is never very much even with 30-06 size loads. Regardless of the reason, I verify the weight of the charge thrown by the measure.

Among other reasons and because of these changes, I never leave powder in the powder measure at the end of a reloading session. For this, I am concerned about humidity or the solvent flashing off affecting the powder.

Maybe i am overly concerned.

 

[cleanview]

I gave up on the charge bar. Every time I try it again, it just lets me down.

 

[RandyP]

I can't say I've hand any negative issues with my Lee adj. charge bar at all, using Win 231/HP-38.

Everything is relative, those of us who are not loading at the top end of the data tables have a much larger 'window' of acceptable charge variance. Were I loading only max charges? I'm sure I'd be weighing each one and trading the advantages of the turret speed for more safety.

Using my little digital scale it is very easy to tare each case before charging and then remove it and weigh the charge delivered. A powder trickler would be at the ready to adjust anything up if needed.

That said, there are millions of safe, reliable and accurate rounds fired each year loaded with nothing more than Lee dippers. NOT max loads of course.

 

[BADUNAME37]

RCBS Powder Measure with Micrometer Adjustment.

When I dial in the number (like 257) to throw a load I previously had all set up, I double-check the first ten throws by throwing right into my scale pan with the scale set on the exact weight that I am throwing of a certain powder, e.g., 9.8g Unique.

I have found that better than nine times out of 10, the measure is consistant with the weight of powder I have previously set up.

Even though it is this accurate, I still throw the first ten into the scale pan and about every twenty to thirty throws, I will throw one into the scale pan to be sure I am still right on, and I always am, exactly right-on. Then, at the end of throwing the batch (50, 100, 150 or 200 cases in Frankford Arsenal dedicated trays), I throw one or two more into the scale pan just to verify nothing has changed since I started this batch.

Very seldom do I need to re-adjust the micrometer setting number that was originally made and recorded in the reloading notes for the particular cartridge I am assembling. The load recipe is written on the inside label of the RCBS die set and on every box of cartridges I produce, including the powder measure mic setting.

 

[dickttx]

When I first started using my Pro Auto Disk on my LCT I had some problems with inconsistancy. After much cussing and discussing with myself I found that most of the problem was with the adjustment of the powder thru/flair die. On the installation of the .45 ACP die I had hit it just right. However, when I set up my .45 Colt I did not, therefore the cussing. Screwing the die in and out moves the drop hole in the disk in relation to the hole in the base of the measure. You can easily end up with only half a hole open. This will leave a ledge on the drop hole in the base and all the powder in the disk hole may not fall through. This is worse with flake powder like Unique than with HP38 that will slide through about any opening.
So far, adjusting the die so that the two holes are completely aligned has also resulted in a correct case flair. I can see where that could be a problem.
Re-reading all the material with the dies, the powder measure, and the Lee loading book did not reveal any mention of this.

 

[mgmorden]

I trust my powder measure to have less variance than a digital scale .

I use a Lee "Perfect" Powder measure (I load single stage, but I still charge the cases using a measure as it's quick once I have it set) and its boringly consistent, even with powders that are known to "not meter well". I usually set my beam scale to the charge I want and just quickly trial and error the measure setting until it balances the beam. Once its set I'll run 10 more charges weighed to make sure I'm consistently getting that measurement.

After those 10 come out ok, I'll keep going - measuring occasionally to make sure I'm still good (usually ever 50-75 rounds or so I'll weight to make sure its still set - never has not been but it still feels prudent to do so ). Like I said, it's almost always within 0.1gr. That only opens up to 0.2gr of variance when it gets a little low. I keep it topped off most of the time so its not an issue, but when I'm down to the last bit of a type of powder there's not much to do except give it a tap every few throws to make sure its settled as much as possible.

 

[Fishslayer]

A digital scale needs to be calibrated often. I spot check weights from time to time and calibrate my Lyman 1500 each time. Temperature can affect the measurement. Also the weight can vary as the powder settles in the hopper. I run a fresh hopper through a half dozen cycles or so.

I also use the Lee Auto Disc. For loads that don't have a cavity close enough I use the charge bar. I've found them to be very consistent.

 

[heydawg]

I don't trust the guy using the scale, but I do trust the scale. I would trust a powder scoop like the Lee powder scoops far more than a scale. Nobody loads ammunition on a grand scale in anything but volumetric measures. It's just a fact. Even the best commercial ammunition is charged this way.

The scoops are a volumetric measure. They don't care if the powder is damp, humid. They just work. They dispense the same volume every single time so long as you are consistent. Based on the published grains to volume data available for powders, you can easily and rapidly calculate the grains.

Scales are very good about giving you the perception of precision. I have a Lee scale. Nice little thing for the money. But if not correctly zeroed, I will be finding a very consistent inconsistent charge being thrown without ever realizing it.

I use a Lee Perfect Powder measure and it is indeed amazingly consistent. Its so consistent I don't even check the cases except at random. I have set it up for a charge one day, came back 2 weeks later, and it will throw the exact same volume despite wild swings on temp and humidity.

I can set it up, dial the charge in, measure 2 drops of powder, and charge 50 cases without worrying it is out of whack. It just works.

 

[Shmackey]

The powder measure on my Hornady LnL is so good* I sometimes wonder why I still bother loading rifle rounds with a scale and funnel.

*By good, I mean it dispenses the same amount of powder each time, as long as that powder is not Unique. "Good" does not mean "easy to set up perfectly with a powder-through expander," which it is not.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I don't even pay attention to variances that low. 2 tenths is well within my limit for pistol rounds.

For that matter, I don't measure my rifle competition rounds that meticulously either. I'm not a benchrester.

 

[cactus02]

Charging inconsistincies can be almost totally eliminated with a redding powder master or RCBS powder measure in the way it is manipulated. for ball powders one even stroke is all that should be nedded, For flake powder such as unique, 700x, herco etc. rap the handle two times when the powder chamber is in the up position to settle the powder and you will see very little variation + or - .1 gn. Another trick is to rap the handle two times when using ball powder to add just a little more when developing loads

 

[jolly roger]

Redding 3BR for rifle and a Uniflow with baffle and small micrometer for pistol. Swear by them. Use these most of the time. Dead on accurate within .1 grain.

I do (DID) have a Lee Adjustable Charge Bar...swore AT that. Disks are perfectly fine though. Have no problems with the disks at all with ball powder.

The fact is ball powder will work fine, some flake works fine, stick powder and large flake like Unique is touchy as far as FINE accuracy goes. It's the nature of the beast. Unique will drop within .3 grain from the Uniflow and I have never seen ANY accuracy issues in pistol ammo or rifle ammo with weighing exactly and dropping as long as the load is not max of course. Now at 300+ yards? Yep it does make a difference.

 

[jolly roger]

Ditto on what Cactus said too. Technique is key