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How much DO you want to keep your guns?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Samurai Penguin, Feb 15, 2004.

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  1. Samurai Penguin

    Samurai Penguin Member

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    L. Neil Smith's Page has a number of essays and ideas peculiar to libertarianism. With all the right/left battles happening around here, I figured we might just want to boil the whole political spectrum down to a RKBA point of view.

    Answer, if you wish: How much DO you want to keep your guns?

    Would you agree to permit adults to buy, sell, read, write, make, listen to, or watch whatever books, magazines, records, tapes, or movies they want, no matter how pornographic -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Would you agree to tolerate Buddhists, Moslems, Taoists, Scientologists, Satanists, atheists -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Would you agree to let women control their own reproductive process, have abortions (at their own expense) -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Would you agree to allow people their own sexual preference, homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Would you agree to halt the "War on Drugs", to leave others alone, even to ruin their lives with alcohol, nicotine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, or any other substance -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Would you agree to respect the rights of anyone, no matter their race or national origin -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?

    Okay...we know that many of these things are primarily(but not exclusively) the causes of those sheeple who will never be convinced that every gun owner isn't a slavering, kill-crazy homicidal maniac. :rolleyes: That's not the point. Are you better than that? Would you be willing to stand up for, if not neccesarily agree with, their freedoms if you knew they'd stand for yours?

    Let the debate begin!

    :D
     
  2. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    I'd agree to all of those, save this one...
    Why wouldn't I agree to that, you ask? Simple. A child is 50% the man's as well.... Women want equal rights in everything, but if a man wants to keep his child from being killed, he does not receive equal rights.
     
  3. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    With the exception of Kiddie porn and kids getting porn on the first one, and assuming I can choose how to enforce the lack of drug useage with my children, yes, I would support or tolerate those, assuming that public funds would not be used to pay for things like drug treatement for the idiots who chose to use them.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of free drug trade and abortion, but the former will, in my opinion, work itself out relatively quickly while the latter is already legal.
     
  4. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    Yes.

    Because it is none of my damn business what people read, have sex with, put in their body, worship, own or do in their spare time as long as it hurts no one but themselves.

    On the abortion issue the man should have 50% say if he chooses to prove paternity. That would be his business.

    The world would be a better place if Darwinism was decriminalized.
     
  5. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    Nor does he undertake equal RESPONSIBILITY. He's not the one who has to carry the fetus to term and then go through labor and delivery or a C-section. Even with modern medical care, pregnancy can be a life threating situation for a variety of reasons.
     
  6. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    No deals. I'm keeping my guns. That has nothing to do with anyone else's rights or any other types of rights.
     
  7. Mulliga

    Mulliga Member

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    A common sense viewpoint - shame the newspapers and media never see things the way we do.

    All the other libertarian stuff (and I'm a registered Libertarian) is somewhat arguable - border control, abortion, the war on drugs - but guns are not, since guns make sure we can continue to argue about border control and abortion. :)
     
  8. Black_Talon

    Black_Talon Member

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    I'd support all of them. I'm a libertarian. As long as whatever other people do doesn't hurt anyone else, they can do *** they want to do.
     
  9. longrifleman

    longrifleman Member

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    I'd agree also. The only part that troubles me is the abortion issue. The child is a separate individual and I think the non-agression principle ( I'm a libertarian also) should apply to them as well as everyone else. I've never managed to figure out how to apply it without expanding govt. power and control beyond a reasonable limit.

    This is the core problem with our society. Everyone is eager to use the power of the state to force other people to do what they want. It seems a lot of people are more worried about forcing others to toe the line than to have freedom for themselves. I've never understood this attitude but I see it displayed all the time.
     
  10. Ryder

    Ryder Member

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    I don't get it

    Freedom is self-serve and doesn't exist unless you excercise it. My freedom does not depend on others.
     
  11. kbr80

    kbr80 member

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    I am with Standing Wolf on this. It is my right, no compromise.
     
  12. HBK

    HBK member

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    I'm with Standing Wolf on this one as well.
     
  13. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Ditto Standing Wolf.
     
  14. Michigander

    Michigander Member

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    Ditto Standing Wolf.

    Even though I agree with longrifleman when he says,

    But it doesn't have a thing to do with my right to self-defence.
     
  15. Parker Dean

    Parker Dean Member

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    I think the questionairre is designed to show gun rights supporters as hypocritical as there seems to be an assumption implied that those that support the 2A are likely to be against abortion, for the WO(s)D, etc.

    Further, once that hypocriticality is demonstrated it can then be used to attack the 2A supporter position by saying that if you're for infringing on others rights in these other issues, then you cannot logically be against infringements on the 2A.

    Apparently they forgot the growing Libertarian movement :D

    Anyway, I'm with Standing Wolf, although the abortion issue is pretty sticky since it involves others, like the father and the child to-be.
     
  16. justice4all

    justice4all Member

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    The question is, would you be willing to vote for a TRULY pro gun candidate or party, if said candidate or party also advocated the other human rights listed? In other words, do you believe in freedom for everyone, or just for people whose lifestyles you agree with? In other words, are you part of the solution, or part of the problem; do you believe in more government or less?
     
  17. Linux&Gun Guy

    Linux&Gun Guy Member

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    Im a libertarian so anything people do is fine as long as it does not harm others.

    If a 'child'(more like teen) goes out looking for porn its safe to say they want to see it. I don't think that should be a crime; if they see the goatse man then hell that comes with the territory.

    Now showing kids porn should be illegal because it may hurt them as they don't want to see it.

    A baby pre birth depends only on the mother and uses the mothers energy and food to live. The baby can't be cared for by anyone else. I think the baby is part of the mother and can be killed. Its like removing a 6th toe that you don't want. Now once the baby is born kill it and its murder; the baby can be cared for by other people once it is born so it is now its own intity(sp?).

    Its the parent(s) choice! If you let the state in on this they could just as easily force you to have an abortion - Look at China! :uhoh:
     
  18. Greg Bell

    Greg Bell Member

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    Q: "Would you agree to permit adults to buy, sell, read, write, make, listen to, or watch whatever books, magazines, records, tapes, or movies they want, no matter how pornographic -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"

    A: Anything short of authentic snuff and kiddie porn is O.K. with me.


    Q: "Would you agree to tolerate Buddhists, Moslems, Taoists, Scientologists, Satanists, atheists -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"


    A: Sure! Come on in and grab a seat. But hey, you guys gotta tolerate Christians too! :D



    Q: "Would you agree to let women control their own reproductive process, have abortions (at their own expense) -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"

    A; No deal. I can't support giving one person the right to kill another at whim. Too much.


    Q: "Would you agree to allow people their own sexual preference, homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"

    A: Sure, knock yourself out. Use protection! :D

    Q: "Would you agree to halt the "War on Drugs", to leave others alone, even to ruin their lives with alcohol, nicotine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, or any other substance -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"

    A: Sure. A grown man (person) should be able to make his own call on what he puts in his body. I wouldn't do drugs personally--hell, I can't stay away from sausage biscuits! No way I could resist crack! :D


    Q: "Would you agree to respect the rights of anyone, no matter their race or national origin -- if they agreed to let you keep your guns?"

    A: As long as you are a U.S. citizen (and not serving in an enemy army) you should have the same rights as me.

    GHB


    how did I do?
     
  19. corncob

    corncob Member

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    I'm surprized this thread is still open,

    but I'm game.

    I see the point, respect all freedoms or none of them.

    And I agree, but the part about abortion is a trick. I am a rational person. Show me some good, hard, reproducible scientifc evidence that something happens when a baby passes through the birth canal that physically changes what it is. The "sixth toe" buisiness is a farce. Every year doctors are able to save infants more and more premature. They are saving preemies WAY before most people are uncomfortable giving the mother the "right to choose," never mind the dispicable practice of partial-birth abortion.

    It is unjust for a woman who has been raped to bear a child, but how much MORE unjust is it for a child to be murdered (brutally, I might add) because of circumstances surrounding its conception THAT IT CAN NOT CONTROL.

    How about respect human rights for all humans or none of them.
     
  20. Greg L

    Greg L Member

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    Oooh, I like that one.
     
  21. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    Linking the RKBA to all those other freedoms is nonsense. The exercise of any of the noted freedoms is totally independent of the others. There is no link between them as a whole except at some very highly philosophical, pie in the sky, and extra-cerebral level.

    That said and being a libertarian I'd have to say yes (with certain caveats) to everything on the list. It's pretty much none of my business what other folks do as long as what they're doing doesn't take any skin off of my or someone else's back.

    I do have a personal moral objection to abortion. I see it as nothing less than murder. However, I'm not sure I have the right, moral/legal obligation or the qualifications to make that judgement for others. (Well actually I could make that judgement but doing so conflicts with my libertarian outlook to a degree that I choose not to).

    Kiddie Porn bothers me too. Kids don't have the maturity and/or sufficient life experience to make decisions that involve them in PORN. I don't think the parents should have the right to make that decision for them either . As for adult porn - hey - what ever pops your bubble as long as it don't pop on me is fine.

    On the more pragmatic side the question as presented is moot anyway. WE'VE GOT GUNS - THEY DON'T when push comes to shove if we have the will to use them when the time comes it matters not what the bliss ninnies want. If we don't have the will then we don't deserve to keep our guns anyway.
     
  22. Selfdfenz

    Selfdfenz Member

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    I'm with Standing Wolf.

    However, when I read the list of things I would supposedly have to put up with, accept, whatever, it stikes me that 90% of the points are legal, regulated but available or tolerated or unregulated already.

    I see this largely as a bogus set of questions from the get go.


    And the list is:
    Would you agree to permit adults to buy, sell, read, write, make, listen to, or watch whatever books, magazines, records, tapes, or movies they want, no matter how pornographic .....You mean it's not already. Where does the original author live? Sure and heck isn't the same town I live in.

    Would you agree to tolerate Buddhists, Moslems, Taoists, Scientologists, Satanists, atheists ....I thought there was some kind of Constitutional Amendment about this. Give me some examples where this kind of thing not "protected" in the US. Some of the above have churches/temples/mosques in this town and are building on.

    Would you agree to let women control their own reproductive process, have abortions (at their own expense) ...Roe vs Wade, this is a non-starter.
    Far as I know only partial birth abortion has been restricted/forbidden. My guess, it still goes on. I beleive even married women have the option to abort the fetus of their husband if they so desire in the USA and are half way intelligent in what they say to the abortionist when they make the decision "control their own reproductive process".

    Would you agree to allow people their own sexual preference, homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual .....I can't keep'em from it no matter what I think and neither can anyone else.

    Would you agree to halt the "War on Drugs", to leave others alone, even to ruin their lives with alcohol, nicotine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, or any other substance ....two are legal, plenty of peps are ruining their lives with the other ,the WOD not withstanding. This is the only legit question as there is a WOD. If I was willing to give up on the WOD you can bet I would need to be able to keep my firearms.:D :D There's your 10%.

    Would you agree to respect the rights of anyone, no matter their race or national origin ....Civil Rights Act of 64 and how many others since that time?? Have I missed a lynching?? No. Another non-starter.

    BTW...If you asked Darwin about Darwinism he would likely have no idea about which you speak. Not sure I do either. Darwin outlined a set of scientific theories, not a belief system.

    No flames intended. :) < see, smile attached

    JMHO and what I get from watching the evening news.
    S-
     
  23. gburner

    gburner member

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    As a human being, my absolute right to self defense is ordained by the Creator.
    As a law abiding citizen of the United States, my absolute right to keep and bear arms without infingement on that right is guarenteed by the Constitution.
    Neither is the result of some quid pro quo deal with the devil.
    I retain these rights come hell or high water; regardless of what choices others make or behaviors others involve themselves in.
     
  24. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    No deals regarding my rights, but I support all of the examples anyway. Sounds like the Bill of Rights.

    The abortion issue is definitely a tough one. If I had to decide for myself, I wouldn't get an abortion, but there's very little change of that situation happening.

    If I had to decide for someone else, I'd sy the cut-off is the point at which an unborn child could survive without the mother. Of course, this point in life is continually changing with improved medical technology.
     
  25. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Freedom for me has to include freedom for everybody else, too - in ALL areas that don't cause direct harm to me or anyone else. That last one is where the abortion issue sticks - but I think it should be up to the individual states since there is nothing explicit protecting it in the Constitution as in free speech, free releigion, and RKBA.

    BUT .... you left out Pagans and Wiccans in #2 :neener:
     
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