How much does your dealer discolse about you?

[Jolly Rancher]

How much does your dealer disclose about you?

Hi I've been lurking here awhile without speaking out but I had an experience yesterday that got me wondering about FFL dealers going out of their way to report "suspect" activity to local and federal authorities. There is a well established dealer in my area that is one of the few places to buy reloading components and I went there yesterday to pick up a few items. While I was in the shop I stuck up a conversation with the owner about the firearms trade and shooting in general.
During the course of the conversation the owner let it be known that he has issues with selling "assault-type weapons" (which he doesn't) and the people who own them. I'm paraphrasing here but it was his opinion that people who owned these type weapons were irresponsible and gave the shooting sports a bad name. He also when on to say it was his policy not to buy firearms outright from indidviduals for fear of be caught dealing with stolen goods. OK I would like to say at this point that everyone is entitled to their opinions and are free to conduct their business as they see fit, but what I took exception with was his comments about his relationship with ATF/FBI/local LE. He spoke about regularly writting down the serial numbers of guns that people came in to sell or trade and then having backround checks ran on them to see if they were stolen and then reporting individual. He spoke that on a regular basis law enforcement agencies ask him to look thought his files to see if "persons of interest" had purchased firearms from him and what the person had bought along with serial #s. He stated that upon occassion he was ask to report any individual that he thought was suspicious (i.e. terrorist, drug dealers, etc., etc.). How I've been around for awhile and have gotten to know a few dealers and in most cases they are good guys who try to operate within the law and cooperate with ATF/FBI/ Local LE when appoached for information and discloser of this information was appropriate, but they didn't go out of their way to play IMO "Jr G-Man". The feeling I got from this guy was he was acting as an unpaid informant keeping an eye out for what he considered "suspicious activity and persons". Kind of made me feel like I was living in Stalinist Russia. Anyway my question to fellow THR members is how prevalent is this behavoir in the shooting community do you think?

 

[Ala Dan]

Looks too me like any firearms dealer who runs a NCIC check
(commonly known in the police business as a 10-29) on persons
without a "just cause" is guilty of opening up a criminal investigation
of said person. In my neck of the woods, that is an illegal practice.

This ruling came about a few years ago when a police officer here
locally would request a "rolling 28 " (10-28) on a vechile tag number.
In other words, this officer would see a good looking female, and
request the 10-28 to possibly gain information for his personal use.
So, now doing this is a big NO-NO; punishable from suspension up to
and including termination of employment.

What would happen to the gun dealer for engaging in this activity,
would be pure speculation; but I would think he/she could/would
face criminal prosecution, at least in my area.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Jim K]

I am torn on this kind of thing, as I expect you are. I don't blame the guy for checking up on guns he takes in, because I have had experience with people trying to sell stolen guns. (In one case, it was a son who looted his father's collection to buy drugs while the old man was on vacation.) Most dealers in this area, for various reasons, won't buy guns outright, preferring to take them in on consignment.

I know a few of those "sportsman" types (like John Kerry) who own hunting shotguns but who think that is the only kind of gun anyone should be allowed to have. Very short-sighted people, believe me.

I guess it is sort of how far you go, and I can't blame anyone for doing the CYA act, but it sounds like the guy has gotten carried away. I would not go out of my way to report someone who acted odd, but I might not sell him a gun, even if he could pass the NICS check.

On the lighter side, I remember one situation where a well-dressed man came in and wanted to buy a shotgun. I asked what kind, and he replied that he just wanted a shotgun, and didn't care what kind. Oh, boy! I figured he wanted to do in his wife or something, so I did question him. Turned out he was the insurance agent for a moving company, and they had lost a customer's gun, which was described on the manifest only as "a shotgun". I told the guy he better get more information, since a man who lost a $50,000 Purdey might not be happy with a $30 H&R. He left, enlightened.

Jim

 

[Werewolf]

Art's Gramma - close your ears.

I'm sorry but that FFL is a ****! Don't do business with him. His attitude concerning assault weapons and their owners is enough in and of itself to boycott the a'hole.

As for being a full time snitch for the Feds... In some places that's enough to get one killed.

 

[Justin]

I refuse to do business with dealers who think that my ownership of a rifle makes me something other than a responsible, upstanding citizen.

 

[whm1974]

I told the guy he better get more information, since a man who lost a $50,000 Purdey might not be happy with a $30 H&R. He left, enlightened.

Remind me if I use a moving company to check the SN on any firearm they ship.

I refuse to do business with dealers who think that my ownership of a rifle makes me something other than a responsible, upstanding citizen.

Does he sell any Ruger Mini-14's by any chance?

-Bill

 

[kikilee]

Where does he get the right to draw the line on the "type" of guns others can own? Especially if they are legal to own?

 

[bean357]

I can't believe a dealer would even want to go there-expressing an attitude of distaste for any type of firearm and the people who own and use them. I've had dealers who have been very adamant with favor (or non-favor) of a certain model or even a manufacturer, but never a type of firearm in general.
So far I have never had dealers question guns I have brought in for possible trades, even when I've dealt with new and unknown dealers. The frequency of me bringing in one to trade is very rare tho

 

[WT]

I have a hard time understanding what this dealer is doing wrong.

I assume the dealer is an FFL. There are certain regulatory requirements that go along with being an FFL. The ATF can review his records to insure (1) he complies with record keeping requirements and (2) while investigating possible criminal activities on the part of the buyer. That is allowed by federal law.

A dealer can choose to sell what he wants. If he doesn't want to sell AR's well so be it. Buy somewhere else. Free choice.

I would not want to buy a stolen gun. I would check serial numbers before buying a gun from a person I don't know. Can't say the dealer wants to handle stolen stuff either. No fault there.

And if Abdul tries to buy 20 AR's and 200,000 rounds of ammo, I'd feel better if someone besides myself had a look at this guy. I think ATF sent out a memo to dealers asking for their help in just such an instance.

I don't see a problem reporting possible illegal activities to authorities, as long as the report is done honestly and without being malicious. Cops get tips all the time.

 

[Jolly Rancher]

Good question whm1974. This guy is a big promoter of Ruger firearms and states that they are the best available on the market. I didn't notice any on the rack but "if" I'm ever back that way I may ask, but there probably wouldn't be any point in trying to order any hi-caps through this guy. Like I say, what a person sells is their business, but I'm sure wouldn't want to show up on this guy's (or anyone elses) "double secret probation" list so I'm not buying.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

if he does sell the mini14/30 then ask if he has any factory 20/30 rnd mags for sale....

 

[Steelcore]

I wouldn't buy any guns from this clown.He gives FFLs a bad name.Don't do any business with him.Don't tell him off either,he'll rat you out.
Back in the Fall of '02 when the two negro snipers Muhqammed & Malvo were busy killing 10 and wounding 3, a local store gave range records for the previous 6 months to the Task Force.Needless to say I haven't been in that place since.*They* are Clark Bros of Warrenton Va.

I've always heard that ATF makes 99% of its cases from snitches with the firearms industry.

 

[Jolly Rancher]

WT I understand that an FFL must follow the law to remain in business and nobody wants to buy a stolen firearm, but the impression I got from this guy was that he would run a check on a firearm even if he had no intention to buy or trade for it just to see if it was reported stolen. Yes, a dealer should if ask by LE/ATF/FBI about a specific firearm they are on record as having received whom they sold it to, but again the impression I got from this guy was if LE had a suspicion that a member of the community "maybe" involved in an illegal activity (even if this activity had nothing to do with buying/possession of a firearm directly) they would simply ask the dealer if Joe down the street had ever bought a firearm from him and the dealer would readily provide the model and serial number of every gun purchased. Therefore if you for what ever reason fell under suspicion for (you fill in the blank), LE would go to this guy and he would start providing a list of purchases. Kind of like a backdoor registration scheme.

 

[spacemanspiff]

what is he doing wrong????

does the phrase 'due process' have any meaning to you, WT?

 

[whm1974]

a local store gave range records for the previous 6 months to the Task Force.Needless to say I haven't been in that place since.*They* are Clark Bros of Warrenton Va.

Did the task force have a court order? or did the store just give infomation?

Keep in mind, there are a lot of "grey areas" with firearm laws. A store or range may have to "voluteer" information to avoid police harassment in the future.

And the ATF CAN make a FFL holders life a living hell.

-Bill

 

[Standing Wolf]

...it was his opinion that people who owned these type weapons were irresponsible and gave the shooting sports a bad name.

I wouldn't even consider doing business with a freeloader.

 

[Steelcore]

No court order.The store just gave them when they asked.As far as I know.The stories in the newspapers didn't mention any court order.

 

[magsnubby]

Checking the serial numbers on a gun a customer is trying to sell or trade in would be using common business sense. Reporting a stolen gun would be his responsibillity as a business owner and as a citizen.

However, and i mean a big HOWEVER, this guy sounds like some kind of Jr G Man wannabe. What right does he have to assume a person is up to no good just because he doesn't like the guys apperance or attitude? What right does a local LEO have to rifle through his records just because he might find something "of interest"?

A little story:

A few months back i was looking to buy a new snubby for my collection so i headed for my favorite gun shop. It's a family owned and run business, the kind of place where you expect to see a bunch of regulars hanging around talking guns, politics or what ever the latest hot topic happens to be. There was a sign on the front door that said "Knock for Entry". In all the years i've been going to this store i had never saw a sign like that on the door before. It turns out the owner had received a very disturbing phone call earlier in the day so he had decided a little extra security was in order. He was also visibly armed. I knew he carried conceled but in all the years i've known him that was the first time i had ever saw him open carry. The owners daughter (she carries a Taurus 605 sob) was explaining the phone call to me when a couple of young guys walking up to the front door caught her attention. One looked to be in his early twenties and the other one looked to be about 16 or 17. The younger one was dressed in baggy pants and a jacket that was way to big for him and had a shaved head. Typical gangbanger attire. The older one had on a t-shirt and blue jeans, had a military haircut and kept glancing around as they walked to the door. "How are you gentlemen doing"? "Fine. Can i see that Mossberg pump"? He looked it over and handed it back and said "Can i see that Winchester"? The younger one looked at me with an ear to ear grin and said "This my brother. He just got back from Iraq".

 

[WT]

spaceman - I don't understand your question about 'due process'.

The federal regulations allow ATF to look at gun purchase records kept by a DEALER if ATF is investigating a specific BUYER. No warrant needed.

Local or state LEO may have the authority to look at records when the DEALER obtains its business license. That is covered by adminstrative or other state statutes.

This 'backdoor' registration has been in effect since the passage of The Gun Control Act of 1968. Probably even longer.

So the answer is yes, the police can check gun purchases of a 'person of interest' at the local gunshop without a warrant.

??

 

[spacemanspiff]

actually WT, what it sounds like is that the feds realized this jr g-man would make an excellent informant for them and they call him and only him when they have 'persons of interest'.

this guys whole story is so far out of whack. first of all, any decent police department has at least one individual that goes to all the pawn shops and gun stores checking serial numbers for stolen items that have been sold/pawned/consigned to them. so why does he worry about it? anyone that takes a used item would be filling out paperwork and would require to see the persons photo id.

he secretly takes down serial numbers of guns people take in seeing if he'll buy them, which he doesnt, but he runs the numbers and the names of the people trying to sell them?

this goes beyond simple business practices. it is violation of the right to privacy. and this jr g-man is the one with the most bootprints all over that right.

 

[bean357]

This is maybe a tad off from the original question, but I wanted to run this by you all that are more knowledgeable!
I had a firearm shipped from a private party to FFL (private party paid via money order). This FFL then wanted to know what I paid for the gun, and told me that I had to pay him SALES TAX on the purchase price plus a transfer fee because that gun was now in his business name and needs to be registered as sold.

 

[CatsDieNow]

Bean357,

That means you find another FFL to do the transfer because you are getting ripped off. Going rate around here is a flat $25 - might be a bit more depending on your location.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[TarpleyG]

The ATF is currently running a hard campaign with FFLs (C&R included) to rat out suspicious people. All in the name of Fatherland security you know. I get the letters every 3 months or so.

Greg

 

[Werewolf]

This is maybe a tad off from the original question, but I wanted to run this by you all that are more knowledgeable!
I had a firearm shipped from a private party to FFL (private party paid via money order). This FFL then wanted to know what I paid for the gun, and told me that I had to pay him SALES TAX on the purchase price plus a transfer fee because that gun was now in his business name and needs to be registered as sold.

So tell the low down dirty thief that you bought it for a dollar. Pay the 8 cents or so along with the transfer fee and never do business with him again.

As an aside it is always best to check with an FFL about his transfer policies before having a firearm shipped to him. Some of them hate doing transfers and won't do 'em. Others charge outrageous fees and the good ones at least see it as an opportunity to make $25 or so for about 15 minutes worth of actual work.

 

[bean357]

Thanks for the input and advice. I never had the "sales tax" bit happen before when I bought out of gun list or from a THR member and had them shipped, so I was a bit shocked. This guy changed his story after the fact. I told him it was none of his business what I paid. Oh, and in addition, he also pretty much made the accusation that I was going to get him in hot water because I had sent his signed FFL to a non-FFL person who he thought was going to "run all over buying guns under his FFL" and told me that a private party could ship directly to me through the mail, which I explained to him that was definitely not the case. He did not believe me, so I got documentation from the postmaster.
uhhhh.....duh!
Makes me wonder how some can stay in business.
I'm looking for a different (trustworthy) FFL who is willing to do transfers.