How much force should be required to seat a bullet?

[JSmith]

Loading .44 magnum this morning using once-fired Winchester brass. This brass was tumbled, deprimed and resized (this is important: I know they were resized because that happens when they're decapped), expanded to .431. On several of these (more than 5, less than 10) I set the bullet at the case mouth, pressed on it a bit to seat it, and was able to push the bullet into the case to seating depth without difficulty, just with a steady push. I ran these back through the resizing die, and tried again. Now I and was able to seat and load a bullet without expanding the case, but I needed to use the press to seat them. This is a Lee Classic turret press, usiing Lee dies that have loaded ~750 rounds.

So: what's up with that? Should it be that easy to push a bullet into a case, or is something wrong with that brass?

 

[Spammy_H]

When you say push a bullet into a case, do you mean that you are able to seat the bullet to its correct length by hand, without the use of a press, or that you can place the bullet into the case mouth and have it not fall out when turned upside down?

A proper case mouth expansion allows you to "press" the bullet into the case mouth by hand, and turn the case over, having the bullet not fall out, but no more.

How far are you able to "hand-seat" the bullet?

 

[JSmith]

When you say push a bullet into a case, do you mean that you are able to seat the bullet to its correct length by hand...

Yes. By pushing on it with my thumb.

How far are you able to "hand-seat" the bullet?

To 1.585" OAL. In other words, as deeply as I was seating all the others. I could've pushed it flush with the case mouth if I'd tried. These weren't expanded any more than the other cases in that batch of 100 (.431, for a .429 bullet.) That's the weird part - if I overexpanded I could see that happening, but I didn't.

 

[Spammy_H]

Yeah, something's definitely wrong. I'm guessing, and only guessing, that you are overexpanding. Not that you are expanding them too "wide", but setting the expansion plug to go too "deep".

You should just be belling the case mouth so that seating the bullet doesn't shave lead, but no more. If you're expanding more than that, you're going to mess with neck tension, probably resulting in what you are experiencing.

 

[rcmodel]

Take the expander plug out of the die and measure it.

The part that enters the case should be .002" - .03" smaller then bullet dia.

Lee often isn't.

If you need to make it smaller, chuck it in a drill and work it down with emery cloth while spinning it.

rc

 

[JSmith]

Spammy & RC, thanks for the suggestions, but I checked those things and that's not it. This isn't an ongoing issue, this is 6 or 7 random cases out of a batch of 100 where I could push the entire bullet into the case with thumb pressure. The cases are once-fired, and they loaded normally the last time i used them.

Let me ask a different question: have you ever had cases in the same lot that seemed soft or easily stretched compared to other cases?

 

[ReloaderFred]

Is "expanded to .431" your inside, or outside measurement? If inside, it's way too large to hold a .429" bullet. If outside, it doesn't tell you much without knowing the case wall thickness. If you're able to measure the case walls of the offending brass, that would tell you a lot.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Spammy_H]

Can you check the headstamps on the suspect brass? Are they a certain type or group? I haven't seen this happen personally, but I haven't reloaded for .44 Mag.

Stupid question time - are they grey colored (steel). Don't be offended, I just want to rule out everything possible.

 

[rcmodel]

Nobody has ever made .44 Mag with steel cases I am aware of.

rc

 

[Spammy_H]

I hadn't heard of one either, but just wanted to make sure.

 

[ATLDave]

I encountered this issue with some PPU 10mm brass, although it was more than once-fired. (I had a thread about it here 2-3 months ago.) Re-re-sizing didn't fix the problem, as the brass had become work-hardened and lost its springiness. Stopped using it and ordered some new Starline brass, which does not seem to have the same problem.

One possible explanation for the intermitancy of the problem might be that you've got one chamber in your revolver that's a little looser. The brass would expand more in that chamber, and re-sizing would involve correspondingly more work to the brass. Maybe that's causing enough work-hardening to lose tension. Consider loading 3-4 cylinders' worth, and carefully keep track of which cases came out of which chamber. See if there's any pattern to which cases develop the loss of tension problem.

 

[Spammy_H]

Dave - interesting concept of having 1 cylinder chamber being too big. Hadn't thought of that before.

I wonder if you could tell by inserting a round in each chamber separately, and seeing if there's any rattle by shaking the cylinder?

 

[JSmith]

Here's another one of those cases. Photo 1, bullet started. Photo 2, bullet seated. I held the ends of the case between my thumb and forefinger and pinched it. Even if I was overexpanding, it wouldn't affect the case that far down, would it?

Headstamp: "R - P 44 REM MAG"

 

[Spammy_H]

That's a Remington headstamp, and they usually make pretty good stuff. Weird.

Unless you're running the expansion plug the length of the bullet, no, that wouldn't cause your problem.

Another stupid question - the bullets are the right diameter, correct?

Are they all R-P headstamps? If so, maybe a bad lot of brass?

 

[rcmodel]

Take one that is loose, resize it, and don't expand it.

Then see if the bullet is still loose.

If it isn't loose, your expander plug is too big like I said in post #5.

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

rc

 

[7075-T7]

Perhaps the sizing die isn't sizing them enough?

With my hornady dies (.44 magnum) there is an obvious line where the base of the seated bullet is (the rest of the case up to the web area is smaller) and I don't see that in the pictures. I'm also using R-P brass for the most part.

 

[JSmith]

That's a Remington headstamp, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

Yeah - just realized that's not the Winchester, this lot is a 100-case bag of Remington brass I bought last July.

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

That's sort-of what I'm thinking. I can seat bullets in resized, non-expanded cases. I wonder why don't I have this issue with Winchester brass?

 

[rcmodel]

What kind of bullets are those?

I see no revolver crimp groove so assume they are plated bullets.

Measure a bunch of the bullets.

I have gotten .355", .356" and .357" 9mm bullets all in the same box of plated bullets once!!

rc

 

[7075-T7]

The Win brass I have for .44 seems to be a little thicker than the R-P brass. I have to expand it more than the R-P brass when I seat lead bullets to keep it from shaving lead.

 

[RustyFN]

Take the expander plug out of the die and measure it.

The part that enters the case should be .002" - .03" smaller then bullet dia.

Lee often isn't.

If you need to make it smaller, chuck it in a drill and work it down with emery cloth while spinning it.

rc

At least with Lee dies and straight walled pistol rounds the expansion is done in the powder die. All he has to do is back the die out a little to decrease the amount of flair. Shouldn't have to chuck anything in a drill.

So: what's up with that? Should it be that easy to push a bullet into a case, or is something wrong with that brass?

No you shouldn't be able to push the bullet in by hand. Sounds like too much flair.

 

[rcmodel]

Lets not confuse expanding with flairing or belling.

The Lee powder-through die is the expander first, then it becomes the flare or belling portion.

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

rc

 

[RustyFN]

Lets not confuse expanding with flairing or belling.

The Lee powder-through die is the expander first, then it becomes the flare or belling portion.

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

rc

So are you saying that the small straight piece that enters the case before the tapered piece that flairs the case is also supposed to expand the case? If so I did not know this. I have never felt resistance from that part.

 

[blarby]

What RC is stating is essentially true, as you can see in this attached pic of a lee 44 expander die with relevant pieces.

The belling stop is at the very end of the stroke. It is not very progressive- it is notable and abrupt at the end of the stroke.

If you have fully resized the brass in a correct resizer die, and applied the correct case expansion, you should need to seat the bullets with significant force.

Something is indeed, wrong.

The pieces you are looking at are the reason I use a combination of lee and lyman dies for 44 - I do not like the inaccuracy of the expander lee provided me. In addition to your size problems, the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem to the untrained. If it sticks in a certain spot while you are fine tuning the die, you can have variance issues on each piece of brass. Just like you are having now.

Mine is not in spec. It will provide the same issue you are describing, OP- it expands to .4315- far too large.

It accomplished this feat by being out of round not out of size. It was basically unfixable.

You can do as RC explains, or obtain a different expander die.

I love the lee sizer, with the "safety" decapping pin. I love the seater, with a one step VS two step approach. I hated the expander. The 44 set is one of many that I have found lacking, and one of the many reasons I take lee die problems with a grain of salt. Unlike most dies- at their heart, usually the problem ends up being the die- not the user.


Because of the travel ability in a LEE powder through expander die, the expander can be the exact diameter intended- yet be applied in the stroke at an angle not completely true- dramatically changing the diameter of the expanded case. In a perfectly formed die, applied by an expert hand, in a perfect world- this would never be an issue. Given the perpensity for non perfection in both the die, the user, and our world- I would ( and did ) buy a better die.

Easy test for this :

Take the expander die out of your quick change bushing.

Take the powder measure adapter off, so you can view the expander plug.

Shake it side to side, being careful not to shake it up and down.

Hear that rattle ? Thats your expander going side to side. Its not "true".

Stick your brass up in the die.

See how much clearance you have around the sides ? You can have that much "slop" in each round- allowing each one to be different.

Put these two together- and you have a recipe for inconsistency. Throw in a loosely cut shellholder, and you essentially have a slinky trying to stay a tube.

You could send it back to lee........ Or just go buy a better tool.

Guess which one I did ?

FWIW- if you get a really good shellholder, and a perfect expander plug from lee- you could make this work. I have never heard of anything "perfect" from lee- only good enough.

 

[RustyFN]

If you look at the first piece below the die body that is the piece I'm talking about. My impression was that the small flaired portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnel to keep powder from spilling.

 

[ATLDave]

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

Or, as was the case for me, the brass had gone bad and just couldn't be resized effectively.