How much force should be required to seat a bullet?

[rcmodel]

Well, I have been reloading for 50+ years and I have yet to see brass get so old it can't be resized.
If your sizing die is in spec and doing what it should do.

My experiance has been about 90% of the time this "no neck tension" problem is caused by an oversize expander.

The other 10% might be out of spec / thin brass, which seems to be getting more common today as manufactures try to cut corners everywhere there is a corner they can cut to save money.

They can make brass thinner, and make the case forming dies smaller to make the thinner brass fit the bullets.

But then it is too thin to size properly in a standard sizing die..

rc

 

[rcmodel]

My impression was that the small flared portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnel

Well, Lee calls it a powder-through Expanding die for some reason.

Mr. Lees book goes on to explane that the sizing die makes the case too small for a bullet to enter it.

So the expander die is used to open it back up to just less then bullet diameter.

If you look at the picture, you can see brass rub-off on the expander portion of the stem where it has been expanding the cases.

rc

 

[blarby]

The "powder through" plug essentially allows the powder to flow through into the case- and at the end of that cases' travel out of the die... "taps" to agitate any powder stuck in the drop tube into the case.

If you aren't using a progressive reloader, or a powder drop that attaches to your press, this is a useless and difficulty inducing piece of tooling.

 

[243winxb]

I wonder why don't I have this issue with Winchester brass?

Win. has thicker case walls?? It takes around 30 to 70 pounds of pressure to seat a bullet. (223 & 30-30)

 

[ATLDave]

Well, I have been reloading for 50+ years and I have yet to see brass get so old it can't be resized....
The other 10% might be out of spec / thin brass, which seems to be getting more common today as manufactures try to cut corners everywhere there is a corner they can cut to save money.

I don't know which was the problem for me. All I know is cases that previously had resized OK (at least twice) stopped taking a resize. Maybe that's because they were thin to start with and got stretched a little thinner. Maybe that's because of work-hardening or something else. But the same dies work well with other brass.

 

[JSmith]

What kind of bullets are those?

Berry's Plated Flat Point .44s. I measured several, diameter is a consistent .429

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

Resized case inside diameter is .425. Expander plug diameter is .427.

the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem

I drop charges out of the powder measure ( RCBS Uniflow) directly into the cases before bullet seating, not in the press.

It accomplished this feat by being out of round not out of size.

Out of round???? Really?! Now, that is something I hadn't looked at yet. I'll get back to you!

 

[blarby]

Resized case inside diameter is .425. Expander plug diameter is .427.

If this is indeed the case, and the bullets you are trying to seat are indeed .429- you are getting the slinky effect somewhere.

the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem
I drop charges out of the powder measure ( RCBS Uniflow) directly into the cases before bullet seating, not in the press.

Doesn't matter- the plug moves with or without a powder tube attached to it.


Even if your brass were tired, .427 should be the ID of your brass after expanding- not .430+- which would be required to push a bullet all the way flush with the case mouth using your finger.

 

[JSmith]

Well, that was interesting.

The resizer seems to be the part that's not right. Prizes to rcmodel and 7075-T7 for sugesting that yesterday afternoon.

I took everything apart and measured it this morning. First I checked the expander plug; it was in spec at .427 all the way around.

Resized (unexpanded) case diameters ranged from .424 measured one way, to .428-.430 measured another way. (I wish I had a fired, unresized round to measure.) So the inside of the resizer seems not to be perfectly circular. I tried inserting the expander plug from the die into a case by hand and it went in very easily all the way up to the belling flare. (See attached photo.)

The bullets are Berry's plated flat points. I measured a handful of them and they were all very uniform at .429. (See attached photo.) In that photo I'll draw your attention to the bottom edge - you'll see that it's slightly rounded. That's the part inside the case to the right. Then I tried seating the bullet by hand (see attached photo.)

AS a final check I took the .357 expander die apart and tried that plug on a resized case. Those cases are smaller diameter than the expander.

Implications: First, I appear to have a two-stage press: resize and seat. I haven't had problems shooting ammunition from that die set in the past. Will this situation be an issue? Should I crimp them just a little bit? And I guess I will want a new resizer sometime in the future, huh?

As always, guys, thanks for helping me sort this out!

 

[murf]

what is the outside diameter of your sized case?

murf

 

[JSmith]

Not sure. I loaded the rest of the batch so any measurement made now would be meaningless.

After I shoot a few of these I want to do a before-and-after-resizing set of measurements and then... I guess I'll call Lee about a replacement.

 

[Lost Sheep]

How much force should be required to seat a bullet?

About 35 lbs according to post #3 in this thread
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html#post814465

The person who wrote the post is a retired gunsmith of considerable reputation going by the handle, "Iowegan".

In a heavy-recoiling load for a revolver, I would go more rather than less, lest unfired rounds jump crimp as their brothers are fired.

Lost Sheep

 

[James2]

If you look at the first piece below the die body that is the piece I'm talking about. My impression was that the small flaired portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnel to keep powder from spilling.

To clarify: That "small flaired portion" is the flaring part of the tool, and the "straight part below it" is the inside neck sizer. It is the diameter of this part that will determine your neck tension. As noted, if you are not getting enough tension, you can turn it down a little. What does it measure? What do your bullets measure? It must be a couple thou smaller than the bullet.

Yes it also acts as a powder funnel.

To properly adjust the die, you should screw the die in until you just get enough flare to allow the bullet to seat without shaving the bullet with the ram at full up. If you go any more than this you will reduce neck tension.

 

[murf]

alright, here goes. my lee sizing die squeezes the case down to .451". r-p cases have a neck thickness of between .011 to .0115 inches (we'll use .011" here). your bullet diameter is .429". your expander is .427" in diameter.

inside diameter of the r-p case after sizing (the expander is going to be too narrow to affect this calculation) is: the sized diameter of .451" less twice the neck thickness of .011" (.451-.022, or .429 inches).

bottom line: your bullet is the same diameter as the inside of your cases, or in other words, a press fit, or zero neck tension.

suggest you get some winchester or federal cases and an rcbs sizing die (squeezes the case down to .450"). at least you will have a little bit of case tension.

murf

 

[JSmith]

Murf, that sounds about right.

bottom line: your bullet is the same diameter as the inside of your cases, or in other words, a press fit, or zero neck tension

Which pretty accurately sums up what I'm seeing. I didn't have this issue with my Winchester brass, and I didn't see it with the R-P brass because this is the first time that lot has been resized.

Thanks!

 

[JSmith]

I just called my LGS; he has 3 bags of Win .44 mag brass for me. I'm going to leave that R-P brass in the trash can at the range just as soon as I fire them.

 

[Trent]

Too bad it's not a rifle, this is exactly the situation where neck sizers that take collets really shine.

I'm done with Remington brass. This last batch of 300 win mag I bought was so horribly inconsistent, next time I'm just going to "bite the bullet" and buy premium brass. 2x as much cost, sure, but 1/2 the damn headache.

Neck turning this batch of brass I bought, one side of the case is .003 THICKER than the other side! You don't even need to MEASURE it, you can SEE the difference in thickness with the naked eye it's so different!

I cut a case off at different lengths to measure the case all the way to the base in increments, the cases are very consistently thicker ALL the way down one side, than the other side.

Irritating. Knowing that I have half of my case weakened all the way to the webbing is just ... a little nerve wracking.

Anyway Remington needs to step their game up.