I have a Tangfolio in 9mm, bought new and it groups around 4" at 25 yds. My used CZ75, another used Tanfoglio and a used Taurus 92 group around 2.5" if I do my part. The slide lock-ups are tight at both barrel to slide and chamber area, not loose at all to the frame, I know the trigger is a little rough compares to my better 9mms and have dry fired it couple hundreds times already, not much better. I wonder how much it may benefit from a trigger job. Should I expect to shrink the group size down to 3" or even less after a trigger job, or I just leave it alone?
How much grouping improvement from a trigger job?
- Thread starter HankC
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200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
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A good trigger (almost imperceptible 'creep', crisp break) will always help a shooter's "hitability". It stands to reason that one's shot groups should become tighter with an improvement in a trigger's action.
A good trigger (almost imperceptible 'creep', crisp break) will always help a shooter's "hitability". It stands to reason that one's shot groups should become tighter with an improvement in a trigger's action.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
It depends on how poor your trigger pull (as in your skill level) is. The better your skill, the less improvement you'll see.
Since I can shoot 2.5" groups at 25 yds, 2 hands hold, standing, with my better handguns, I know it is the gun, not much the shooter. However, since all my "better" guns are purchased used and trigger feel nicer, I don't know how much I may get from a trigger job and if worth the trouble doing so. CZ and Tanfoglio trigger job is bit tricky and may mess up the timing if not careful. I have not done one myself yet.
RussB
Member
A good shooter can shoot equally well with a 6# or a 2# trigger. It's all about technique, not hardware
The Lone Haranguer
Member
A trigger job helps the accuracy of the shooter, not the gun. If the gun is only capable of four-inch groups when fired from a bench or machine rest to eliminate shooter error, the trigger job won't do anything for it.
40-82
Member
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I personally find tighter groups easier to accomplish with a gun with a good trigger pull, even from a bench, but what has been pointed out before is correct. Trigger work will not enhance the mechanical accuracy of the pistol. How much improvement you get in your groups from trigger work depends upon how much a less than ideal trigger affects your shooting.
browningguy
Member
??? Really???
Personally I've not seen any of the top shooters going to heavier trigger pulls.
Know that and agree, but I shoot worse from a bench than free hand standing. I can't explain why, but I guess is because of standing position allows upper body to absorb recoil more than shooting from a bench in sitting position. When shoot from a bench, I have more vertical string and opens up the group size. Don't have a handgun machanical/sled rest which would really test the gun's inherent accuracy.
1SOW
Member
I agree that a good "trigger Job" makes the pistol "easier" to shoot more accurately.
The pistol simply is what is as far as accuracy goes. Shooting out of a ransom rest won't change with a trigger job.
I need a good trigger to shoot at "my" best. My group sizes dropped and more importantly, my consistancy improved with my CZ 75 Shadow Custom when my DA got to 5# and SA is at 2#7oz, with a very short reset and no creep or camming.
YMMV
I also shoot worse from a bench rest with my pistol if the butt of the grip or any part of the pistol is being supported. For me, resting only the forearms or near the wrists allows the pistol to recoil and muzzle flip more naturally using the exact same grip used for freehand..
The pistol simply is what is as far as accuracy goes. Shooting out of a ransom rest won't change with a trigger job.
I need a good trigger to shoot at "my" best. My group sizes dropped and more importantly, my consistancy improved with my CZ 75 Shadow Custom when my DA got to 5# and SA is at 2#7oz, with a very short reset and no creep or camming.
YMMV
I also shoot worse from a bench rest with my pistol if the butt of the grip or any part of the pistol is being supported. For me, resting only the forearms or near the wrists allows the pistol to recoil and muzzle flip more naturally using the exact same grip used for freehand..
RussB
Member
Perhaps you should look and see who's shooting what in USPSA and IDPA production classes? Ever watch a good revolver shooter? Seems a 7#DA pull doesn't hamper their success.
There's an old saying, "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian"
Working to improve one's technique will be a significantly more beneficial endeavor for long term shooting success than reducing trigger pull in hopes of masking shooter error
Big Shrek
Member
I'll bump that a little further down the road...top shooters tend to have really good hand/arm strength.
Ever shake Jerry Miculek's hand?? He's got a Solid Grip.
Muscular control is a big part of being a good shooter...if you have serious strength,
it makes a lot of things easier to control...from the trigger, to the grip,
to making recoil easier to deal with & recovering from recoil quicker.
Everyone wants to do fingertip pushups...but you have to work your way up to them
Start with an Eagle Claw exerciser...
http://www.amazon.com/TMAS-Eagle-Catcher/dp/B0000CA2P6
After a few months, your grip will be in the "Crusher" range...
To get yourself to Fingertip Pushup level...
get into the position, raised up and on your fingertips...then just ease yourself down slowly.
You are unlikely to be able to get back up with perfect form...but that's ok, its not the point yet...
just keep doing the Down portion, and attempting the up...every day...every week add 5 more downs...
eventually, you'll find yourself being able to go up cleanly once...then twice...then three times...
"Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming..." hehehe
Kinda like doing pullups...do a lotta downs, eventually you can do ups...just never give up!!
Hope you realize that trigger jobs are not illegal in production.
I shoot a Glock in production and it has around a 2.5 pound trigger pull, that is smooth as butter... Does it help with accuracy? Not on a glock.
While I definitely agree its more about the Indian than the gun of any type in competition. I am a self admitted trigger snob and dont own a single gun that hasnt had trigger work.
While some mention of 2# trigger and top competitors, I am not that kind of "Indian" and just an average shooter enjoy some fun time at the range. So, if you want to help, consider posting for average person. I don't own any handguns with "hair" triggers. All my "better" guns still have trigger pulls around 5# in SA that I am happy for range guns and achieve 2.5" group at 25 yds with them. The subject 4" group new gun's trigger is gritty and creepy with obvious camming. It may eventually smooth out and get tighter group, but may cost me a lot of ammo to get there and may never get there stay at home for the most of the time. That is why I consider doing a trigger job since couple hundred dry-fires did not get much better. I even considered putting some JB bore paste on the engagement surfaces to help smoothing it out, but that may have some long term ill effect!
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tightgroup tiger
Member
I think the title of your post is really hurting you here but the other posters are answering the question you ask.
You should have asked, "would a trigger job for a creepy, gritty trigger help you shoot it better" You would have gotten and overwhelming YES.
I have to admit, right or wrong, I like all my triggers to feel as close to the same smoothness as I can get them. Guess I'm just getting lazy.
"I" shoot better that way.
Get rid of the creep and gritty feel so you can put it on more equal grounds to your better shooting guns and you may like it better then the ones you have now. You'll also be able to determine accuracy on your terms whether done correctly or not. Your the one who has to live with it.
But like everyone else is saying, the trigger has nothing to do with the accuracy of a gun and technique on our part is everything.
I never shoot well with a new production gun until it trains me.
You should have asked, "would a trigger job for a creepy, gritty trigger help you shoot it better" You would have gotten and overwhelming YES.
I have to admit, right or wrong, I like all my triggers to feel as close to the same smoothness as I can get them. Guess I'm just getting lazy.
"I" shoot better that way.
Get rid of the creep and gritty feel so you can put it on more equal grounds to your better shooting guns and you may like it better then the ones you have now. You'll also be able to determine accuracy on your terms whether done correctly or not. Your the one who has to live with it.
But like everyone else is saying, the trigger has nothing to do with the accuracy of a gun and technique on our part is everything.
I never shoot well with a new production gun until it trains me.
Mas Ayoob won a national level match and he deliberately shoot a Glock with a 10 pound NY trigger. Some DO choose a heavy trigger when they want to make a point.
I see light triggers as simply affecting the sight alignment less when the shooter likes to pull it quickly thinking he's on target. Less muzzle movement is the result and it looks like it works.
I was taught in precision shooting that if you know when the shot is going off, you're doing it wrong. The break happens because the sights are on target due to not weaving around or trying to snatch the trigger just in time.
A clean, crisp break is nice, but the amount of pull has little affect at all - other than safety. Field use guns need 6 pounds or more because we aren't that nimble footed traversing natural terrain, and all to often, the less disciplined do it with their finger on the trigger. We know better, but it happens none the less, and in combat it's a serious problem with adrenaline.
And with adrenaline, you don't even notice that heavy gritty horrible service weapon trigger pull. Of course, 2MOA on a two way range is plenty.
It's the .5MOA precision shooters with their ego on the line who have issues with triggers. Gosh I wish I'd had the 52D's rather than those old 40X's on the indoor range. Coulda shot 10-15 points higher. Don't agree, just ask any competitive shooter who is stuck with equipment he knows is second rate. Blames the gun every time.
I see light triggers as simply affecting the sight alignment less when the shooter likes to pull it quickly thinking he's on target. Less muzzle movement is the result and it looks like it works.
I was taught in precision shooting that if you know when the shot is going off, you're doing it wrong. The break happens because the sights are on target due to not weaving around or trying to snatch the trigger just in time.
A clean, crisp break is nice, but the amount of pull has little affect at all - other than safety. Field use guns need 6 pounds or more because we aren't that nimble footed traversing natural terrain, and all to often, the less disciplined do it with their finger on the trigger. We know better, but it happens none the less, and in combat it's a serious problem with adrenaline.
And with adrenaline, you don't even notice that heavy gritty horrible service weapon trigger pull. Of course, 2MOA on a two way range is plenty.
It's the .5MOA precision shooters with their ego on the line who have issues with triggers. Gosh I wish I'd had the 52D's rather than those old 40X's on the indoor range. Coulda shot 10-15 points higher. Don't agree, just ask any competitive shooter who is stuck with equipment he knows is second rate. Blames the gun every time.
It's because you are less consistent with your technique when shooting it off a bench.
Because you have fewer factors to think about, your technique is not as consistent...you're anticipating the trigger break more, because your mind tells you that you can get away with it with the pistol being supported
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Utter nonsense. A good shooter can shoot well with anything but will almost always shoot better with a better trigger.
Really? Is that how precision shooters time the break between heartbeats, by letting it surprise them?
Brian Zins (11x National NRA conventional pistol champion) doesn't believe in the 'surprise break' of the trigger. He says he knows his triggers good enough to know when the shot will break. However, for those developing their shooting skills, the surprise break can be a useful tool.
I agree.
Trigger management is a progressive technique. How we teach beginning shooters to manage the trigger isn't the same technique used as the shooter's skill progresses
Mr.510
Member
I think the vast majority of shooters, with the vast majority of guns, will shoot better with improved triggers. Shooting it from a bench to see if the groups improve before spending money on a trigger job makes sense if improving accuracy is your only goal with a trigger job.
I had Springer Precision do a combat/carry 4 pound trigger job on my XD45C daily carry gun. It was the best $200 I've ever spent on anything gun related. My groups immediately shrank by probably 30% but more importantly to me I was able to make consistent, accurate double taps and that was the reason I had the trigger work done in the first place: to reduce the reset distance. I have small hands and with months of training and thousands of rounds I never had confidence in my controlled pairs. Now I do. I fully accept that I was the problem, but the trigger job fixed it. (BTW: I can pick up most stock guns and do perfect double taps with zero practice, just not with an XD.)
I'm not Jerry Miculek or Massad Ayoob and I will never, ever be able to shoot like either of them no matter how hard I try or train. I don't advocate just throwing money at gun modifications... but if you have a weakness in shooting that you can't seem to overcome, why not modify the gun so you can shoot it better? Especially if it's only one of your guns that you have trouble with? You and the weapon are a team, whatever improves that team's effectiveness is worth it.
On the subject of doing your own trigger work or having it done, I took Massad's advice and had the most prominent specialist in the weapon I carry do the work since this is my daily carry gun. The idea being that if the gun being modified became an issue in court after a defensive shooting I had the best guy in the industry do the work and he could be called as an expert witness.
I had Springer Precision do a combat/carry 4 pound trigger job on my XD45C daily carry gun. It was the best $200 I've ever spent on anything gun related. My groups immediately shrank by probably 30% but more importantly to me I was able to make consistent, accurate double taps and that was the reason I had the trigger work done in the first place: to reduce the reset distance. I have small hands and with months of training and thousands of rounds I never had confidence in my controlled pairs. Now I do. I fully accept that I was the problem, but the trigger job fixed it. (BTW: I can pick up most stock guns and do perfect double taps with zero practice, just not with an XD.)
I'm not Jerry Miculek or Massad Ayoob and I will never, ever be able to shoot like either of them no matter how hard I try or train. I don't advocate just throwing money at gun modifications... but if you have a weakness in shooting that you can't seem to overcome, why not modify the gun so you can shoot it better? Especially if it's only one of your guns that you have trouble with? You and the weapon are a team, whatever improves that team's effectiveness is worth it.
On the subject of doing your own trigger work or having it done, I took Massad's advice and had the most prominent specialist in the weapon I carry do the work since this is my daily carry gun. The idea being that if the gun being modified became an issue in court after a defensive shooting I had the best guy in the industry do the work and he could be called as an expert witness.
Lucky Derby
Member
True.
But this is because the better the shooter, the more he/she notices these things.
I can hit my target just fine with my Sig P220 in DA. I much prefer to shoot it SA. Or better yet, shoot my 1911.
20 years ago, not so much. I was a terrible shot DA. At the same time, I was nervous around a SA only pistol.
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