How much is too much?

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FriedRice

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A friend suggested to me I might not be letting my hands heal sufficiently between range visits. It occurred to me he may be right. I generally shoot 9 mm or 380 ACP on some variety of Sig Sauer. Range sessions vary from 50 rounds to 100 rounds depending on what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm actively working on skills I've been taught in classes, so I'm not just spraying targets even though I'm new. I tend to shoot 1-3 times a week. Pretend ammo is free.

How much is too much? How does your body protest? What pains do you ignore and what ones do you push through? Does anyone advocate ice, stretching, a glove, etc?

I realize I'll get many opinions but I'm interested. It's a new issue that hasn't occurred to me before today.
 
The point is to be able to learn something from every shot. If you aren't learning from each shot, it is wasted, and that is a waste of time and money-- and it can reinforce bad habits.

An adult of average physical strength should be able to physically shoot an almost indefinite number of 9mm rounds from a compact or mid-size modern handgun without strength coming into play. He may have to "work up" to that level, though.

He will be limited by his attention span more than his physical ability. It takes a certain amount of "mental energy" to attend to the various details of shooting, and that mental focus will fade much sooner than physical strength will wane.

It is not uncommon for people who shoot professionally to shoot 500-1000 rounds per day in a train-up series.
 
The best answer I can give is when your body says "enough". You'll know it, your hands will shake a bit more, problems focusing on the sights, your body will tell you when it wants a rest. It really varies from person to person.
 
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When I'm shooting one of my subcompacts and my carpel tunnel starts to make my right pinkie go numb, then it's time to switch to left hand only for 50-100 rounds. After that, I pack it in and go home.

R
 
My biggest issue isn't with hand or arm strength, it is because my back starts to hurt very quickly. In terms of recoil absorption being an issue, I have shot as many as 1000 rounds in one week between a 9mm and a .45ACP with no noticeable issues. I only did that once a few years back, and maybe I would have noticed it over a longer period, but I don't think so. In any case, I would think that just listening to your body and being disciplined enough to stop when it says to stop would be the best way to measure and deal with this kind of stress.

Keep in mind that will change between calibers and types of guns as well. 5 rounds of a scandium S&W .357 was enough for me to know that unless I am facing certain death I will never shoot a gun of that type again. On the other hand, I can shoot my S&W model 66 (.357 mag) all day with no particular discomfort. As another example, I would also guess that between 25-50 rounds of .44mag would be enough for me on any sort of regular basis, though with a recoil glove that number jumps some. I can tell you from my shotgunning experience that I can shoot right around 100 2 3/4 shells before my (bad) shoulder has had enough, so I don't push it. I can shoot about 1/4 that with 3 inch shells, and I don't even bother with the 3 1/2 inch shells. They just hurt me too much, and one ruins the rest of my day.

Listen to your body. It's good to train hard, but it's bad to train stupid. If your performance is degrading noticeably, or if your hand is starting to hurt, quit.
 
I'm not an adult with average strength. Sometimes my hands start to shake before my mind is done shooting. I can focus usually longer than I can shoot physically and see signs of weakness or deterioration. So I take a break, walk around, get some fresh air, come back and shoot more.

However, my trigger hand does tend to be sore. I intend to shoot until I die so I don't want to be ruining my body by creating overuse injuries. Other things I've overindulged in as a youth (or a yute, if you're Joe Pesci) have come back to haunt me. There is such a thing as too many back handsprings. No one told me that then, now I know, the hard way.

My back also tends to hurt so I do sit when that happens and stretch. It's just a way of life now. I should clarify that my hand doesn't usually hurt after shooting, not til the next day or so. That's what makes it hard to know when to stop.
 
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Interesting questions. Earlier I was reading over in the Competition Shooting/Bulleye Training section, and a guy mentioned taking a break because his scores were declining for no reason apparent to him. One has to wonder. At the surface, one might reason that shooting is much akin to swinging a hammer during framing or construction, but it's not. There's a whole different force effect on the hand/wrist bones. In service schools, I've shot to where my hands hurt. Before arthritis, I thought the thing to do was to just tough it out. I'm not so sure now. When I was in the Army, we alternated hard days and easy days when it came to PT. It was the idea that we were still getting benefit from working out, but the easy days kept us limber and gave muscles and bodies time to heal the little uh-oh's that naturally come from the excertion of the hard days. That kinda makes sence these days (many years later).
Can a fella over do it with pistol shooting? I think so. If the .380 you have is the P230 or 232- that can be a snappy recoiling little pistol, especially if you've ever had impact or traumatic hand/wrist injury. With the kind of shooting you do, and the competition types you're looking to get into- I don't think I'd recommend gloves. For casual, non-serious range play with firearms you don't intend to compete with, then yeah- I like those cheap basic fingerless wheelchair gloves you can get in most pharmacies. They can and do change your natural grip and grip feel which will booger you up when it comes to counting scores. Is it feasable to pick up a .22 for your light day workouts? I don't think anyone could really put a finger on how many is too many for any given feller.
 
"Enough" is governed by the mind, not the body. When the mind stops paying attention to each shot, it's time to call it a day.

If the body wants to over-ride the mind by sending "Hey! That hurts!" signals to the brain, then the gun, caliber, technique or any combiation thereof are not be a good choice for that particular shooter.
 
I promise not to do back handsprings on the firing line, or ever again. I have a bike glove that I picked up when the Ruger LCR was eating my hand. I kept the glove and sold the gun. The 380 is both the 232 and 230 which indeed are snappy. We've yet to see what the Kahr K9 is going to do to my hand. The recoil is much less snappy, but the trigger is heavier. It's negligible at 50 rounds but who knows what it will feel like the next day. I do have a dislocated bone in my right hand from too many back handsprings so I do need to pay attention to what is happening in my hand the day of and the days after shooting. And then there's early stage rheumatoid arthritis, at a younger age than I deserve! It's a lot to track and I've become accustomed to living with pain but I want longevity, accuracy, self defense and stress relief out of my shooting. All the above and more is why the average instructor gets overwhelmed at a certain point and stops thinking. If I stopped everytime my body registered pain, I'd just lay here on the couch and not get up. It's levels of pain, new pain, location of pain and certain types of pain that I may have to look for, I think anyway.

I do have a plastic little Mosquito 22 but it doesn't seem like I'm shooting a gun. Somehow it doesn't fill the "gun" receptor in my brain. I let my friends shoot that when I'm at the range and they're just starting out. If I can think of something else useful to do with it, I might reconsider.
 
Interesting. I shoot 300 rounds per range visit (1 hour... 9mm...and I limit myself to this amount for monetary reasons). You guys make me feel like I shoot too much!
 
I generally only shoot 50 rounds or less per session. Some of that is $, some of it is because I'm REALLY trying to work on form, grip, sight picture, etc. I practice more with an unloaded weapon at home than I do at the range, honestly.
 
Here's something I use to keep it in perspective. While you're working to improve your shooting skills, if it starts to really feel like work, it's time to take a break or bin it for the day. For me at least, enjoyment and focus seem to go hand in hand. I'd say after you've been shooting a bit longer that you'll know what you'll be able to tolerate the next day.
 
Get a full sized all steel gun to put rounds down range through like a CZ 75, you will notice that its not hurting you as much. I have to do this too due to being shot in the neck via ricochette between C3 and C4. I also shoot a lot more .22s now a days, dont underestimate a .22 Mag.
 
I also agree that the ability to focus is the limiting factor in useful practice...you can still have fun and it is relaxing...but if your goal is to become a better shot, each shot should teach you something.

I would suggest more dry fire practice and less live fire. I once had a USPSA/IDPA GM tell me that if he had to choose between dry fire and live fire to keep up his skills, he's choose dry fire...I should add that it has to be focused and the correct form used in dry fire.

He competed back in the days when the belief was that with enough strength/muscle, and the correct stance, you could hold a gun down in recoil for faster shots...he has the bad wrist, elbows and shoulders to prove it
 
I just got an email from a pro answering questions about my holstering method, so there is going to be a serious amount of dry firing in my immediate future. Plus I'm moving over to the Kahr K9 in a few days and really need to spend some time with that DAO trigger. I'll likely be limiting my range time to 100 rounds this Thursday, with the new gun, see how my hand does, lots of dry firing in between and go from there. The larger steel frame guns really do hurt less, however, I've been working with my carry gun in and between training weekends. There will be a long break in the winter when I can go back to the Sig P226, P220, etc that are easier on my hands.

Anybody care to expound on "learning from each shot?" I sight in, fire, sight in again, etc. I start at 5-7 yards, then move out further, watching my groups expand. After awhile the target almost seems irrelevant (blurry) as I'm just watching my front sight anyway and working on smooth, consistent trigger squeeze. I sight in (or try) at longer distances, but I can't see much at 50 feet. Any votes for getting a spotting scope, or whatever those things are called?
 
I usually start students out much closer to the target...like Kyodo archers who start just a few feet from the target

When starting out, learning from each shot means evaluating if each shot was perfect.

1. How did the sight alignment look as the shot broke
2. Where did the shot go as opposed to where you thought it went...calling your shot
3. Did you let the shot go or did you force it
4. Was the trigger finger moving independently from your hand...did you milk the grip
 
The point of "learning from each shot" is to refine your marksmanship skills every time you're at the range. From what you've described, this is what you are doing. It's a methodical system of a hypothesis (grip, stance, trigger pull, etc.), an experiment (shooting), getting measurable results (your groups), and then tweaking the hypothesis. The opposite of this would be showing up at the range with a few buddies, spraying some lead at whatever junk is on the range, and leaving. With that, there's no feedback about how well (or poorly) you shot. By doing what they did, they're skill didn't increase - they left with nearly the same skill as what they started with.
Any sort of average round count per shooting session is going to depend on the individual and the equipment. It's kind of hard to give "rules" for when you need to stop. Hand shaking can be a result of adrenaline or fatigue. The mental aspect and concentration on the front sight is a big deal. When I load a mag and find myself shooting just to empty it, it's time to stop. If my groups start opening up at the same range as a previous string it's time to either take a break or go. Physically, a person is responding to the feedback (pain, fatigue) that you feel. (There's a reason that if I find some 44mag brass, there's only 12 or 18 on the ground!) If you're body is crying out to stop, it's kind of pointless to try and finish the box.
 
Excellent explanation, 9mmepiphany. And that's a lot of focus, which should wear my brain out about as quickly as my body. That's good. I understand the first 3 but I'm not sure I understand #4. Do you mean, move only the trigger finger, keeping the rest of the grip as is, all the way through the shot?
 
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Do you mean, move only the trigger finger, keeping the rest of the grip as is, all the way through the shot?
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I do. The trigger finger moves straight back independent of any tightening of the fingers of the rest of the hand. I just took out my Kahr to verify that this is what I do during the DAO trigger stroke.

Using more finger on the trigger makes this more difficult, using less finger makes it easier. The tendency when you start the trigger back is to first start squeezing down with your thumb, then your little finger and finally you two middle fingers to get a firmer grip on the butt as your finger move further back...that is what I call milking the grip, and usually results in your shots going low. I know there are folks reading this who have never given it that much thought. You don't have to understand it that thoroughly to avoid it, but it really helps when you're teaching it.

It is funny, that this happens less with larger guns, like a Sig 220/226, than smaller guns. My belief is that it isn't about getting a better grip on the gun as it is about concern about being able to hang onto the gun better...it is a subtle difference
 
I shoot 300 rounds per range visit (1 hour... 9mm...and I limit myself to this amount for monetary reasons). You guys make me feel like I shoot too much!
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300 rds in ONE HOUR? Yes, you do.
 
I'd expand on learning from each shot-- other than simply accuracy and placement of each shot, I use a shot timer. If I am trying to dial up my speed, I will shoot a string and then determine the specific split times (eg: 1st to second shot on same target; target 1 to target 2 transition) that I want to work on. If I can dial up the speed with a decrease in accuracy, then I can work on improving the accuracy at that new speed.
 
Interesting. I shoot 300 rounds per range visit (1 hour... 9mm...and I limit myself to this amount for monetary reasons). You guys make me feel like I shoot too much!
Click to expand...
You probably do from a pure training perspective but I have problems, I'm getting old and I led an immoderate life when I was younger most of it on Uncle Sam's dime. When my back says I'm done, I'm done.
 
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