How much powder?
- Thread starter hcker2000
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Thirties
Member
Ammo manufacturers don't publish that data, but you could chronograph the ammo in question and look up the similar fps in your loading manuals. You would get an idea of what you had, but never know for sure.
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Sheldon
Member
3.5 -4.5 grains is what I usually use depending on the powder. There are 7000 grains to a pound.
Primersinmyshoe
Member
The actual amount of powder is only half of the answer you are asking. The burn rate of the powder is the other. There must be at least 20 (probably a lot more) different powders all with different burning rate. Some are real fast, like AA#9 or W296, then the slower powders like Unique. The ammo makers probably use a mixture of powders to get the velocity (at a pressure that is acceptable) they want, which really makes it hard to figure out what they're using.
ReloaderFred
Member
Actually, AA #9 and Winchester 296 are the slower of the pistol powders, with Bullseye and Winchester 231 at the fast end of the chart.
The ammunition manufacturers use what is called "bulk" powders, which are not available to reloaders. We, as reloaders, use what are called "canister" powders, which are blended to provide a fixed burn rate and are pretty consistant from one lot to another.
On the other hand, "bulk" powders aren't blended, and there is sometimes a big difference from one lot to another in the burn rate. The companies use ballistics labs and testing equipment not available to the average reloader to obtain the velocity and pressure they want with each lot of powder. A lot of powder can be very large, though I don't know how many pounds the average lot is. (Interesting question, though)
Trying to pull bullets to see how much powder is in a specific cartridge will only tell you the weight of the powder, but won't tell you what kind it is, or even if you can get something similar. You certainly can't tell by the look of the powder, since so many powders look alike, and as I mentioned above, "bulk" powders aren't blended for a specific burn rate anyway. They will be within certain parameters, which are much broader than "canister" powder burn rates are.
Use loading manuals for your information and you won't go wrong. The more manuals you have, the more information you will obtain, though even some of that will be conflicting because of different testing methods. That's why they all advise to work your loads up and not to start at the maximum.
Hope this helps.
Fred
The ammunition manufacturers use what is called "bulk" powders, which are not available to reloaders. We, as reloaders, use what are called "canister" powders, which are blended to provide a fixed burn rate and are pretty consistant from one lot to another.
On the other hand, "bulk" powders aren't blended, and there is sometimes a big difference from one lot to another in the burn rate. The companies use ballistics labs and testing equipment not available to the average reloader to obtain the velocity and pressure they want with each lot of powder. A lot of powder can be very large, though I don't know how many pounds the average lot is. (Interesting question, though)
Trying to pull bullets to see how much powder is in a specific cartridge will only tell you the weight of the powder, but won't tell you what kind it is, or even if you can get something similar. You certainly can't tell by the look of the powder, since so many powders look alike, and as I mentioned above, "bulk" powders aren't blended for a specific burn rate anyway. They will be within certain parameters, which are much broader than "canister" powder burn rates are.
Use loading manuals for your information and you won't go wrong. The more manuals you have, the more information you will obtain, though even some of that will be conflicting because of different testing methods. That's why they all advise to work your loads up and not to start at the maximum.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Deavis
Member
I'm not sure, most of my bullets have lead inside of them
Car Knocker
Member
Beat me to it, Deavis!
The Bushmaster
Member
O K Guys...I guess I'll have to answer this one as I do have the amount of powder in some Remington Green box rounds.
Let's start with;
9mmX19 +P 5.9 grs of what "looks like" Bullseye under a 115 gr hp.
.38 Special +P 7.7 grs of what "looks like" Unique under a 125 gr hp
.357 Magnum 16.9 grs of what "looks like" IMR4227 under a 140 gr hp
.45 ACP +P 8.7 grs of what "looks like" Bullseye under a 185 gr hp
These are the only ones that I have. Please note that I have said "looks like". I have no real proof of what powder they used. Just my observation.
PLEASE do not use this as load data and PLEASE do not load any of these as stated above...
Let's start with;
9mmX19 +P 5.9 grs of what "looks like" Bullseye under a 115 gr hp.
.38 Special +P 7.7 grs of what "looks like" Unique under a 125 gr hp
.357 Magnum 16.9 grs of what "looks like" IMR4227 under a 140 gr hp
.45 ACP +P 8.7 grs of what "looks like" Bullseye under a 185 gr hp
These are the only ones that I have. Please note that I have said "looks like". I have no real proof of what powder they used. Just my observation.
PLEASE do not use this as load data and PLEASE do not load any of these as stated above...
grendelbane
Member
You could measure the amount of powder in one cartridge, then measure the amount of powder in the same brand, with the same weight bullet, even the same ID number, but different lot number, and come up with a much different answer.
For example, I have seen 2 otherwise identical cartridges from identical boxes, except for the lot number, with 2 different powder charges, and one was loaded with a stick type powder, and one was loaded with a ball type powder. Even the bullets were slightly different, even though their weights were the same.
As far as what a powder looks like, look at Power Pistol, and then look at Bullseye. It is impossible to accurately identify a powder visually.
The factories do an amazing job of producing consistent high quality ammunition that fires in a wide variety of guns. That they do so with such a wide array of available componentes is amazing.
For example, I have seen 2 otherwise identical cartridges from identical boxes, except for the lot number, with 2 different powder charges, and one was loaded with a stick type powder, and one was loaded with a ball type powder. Even the bullets were slightly different, even though their weights were the same.
As far as what a powder looks like, look at Power Pistol, and then look at Bullseye. It is impossible to accurately identify a powder visually.
The factories do an amazing job of producing consistent high quality ammunition that fires in a wide variety of guns. That they do so with such a wide array of available componentes is amazing.
The Bushmaster
Member
The loads above were disassembled, weighed, examined and compared with the powders of the 1996 to 1998 era by me. The silly question was asked and I just happened have the silly answer. Silly me... :banghead:
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Deavis
Member
You can make some educated guesses about the powder plus some are obvious. Blue Dot and Red Dot immediately spring to mind. Last time I looked a PP and Bullseye, it seemed to me that the bullseye flakes were noticeably smaller but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. I'm out of bullseye so I can't compare them right now.
Primersinmyshoe
Member
Thanks Fred, you're right of course.
bogie
Member
"Looks like" ain't the same as "is."
Guys, if you really, really wanna duplicate factory ammo (why bother with substandard, but hey...), gitcherself a chronograph, and play with loads until you get the same speed.
But if you want to do it right, play with loads until you have the best combination of accuracy and speed for _your_ gun.
The _only_ factory "load" I'd be interested in would be the 230 grain Federal hydrashok hollowpoint, and then only for the bullet.
Guys, if you really, really wanna duplicate factory ammo (why bother with substandard, but hey...), gitcherself a chronograph, and play with loads until you get the same speed.
But if you want to do it right, play with loads until you have the best combination of accuracy and speed for _your_ gun.
The _only_ factory "load" I'd be interested in would be the 230 grain Federal hydrashok hollowpoint, and then only for the bullet.
caz223
Member
Power pistol is basically chemically treated bullseye.
Flake size varies from lot to lot moreso than from PP to bullseye.
Flake size varies from lot to lot moreso than from PP to bullseye.
Deavis
Member
Intersting to know that. Thanks!
griz
Member
Just in case all the talk about grains of powder isn't what you're looking for Hcker, a 9mm has about half a thimble full of powder. It isn't much. A rifle round might have a teaspoon or two depending on the size of the round. But it would defineitly be a differnt powder, they are nowhere near interchangable. Hope that helps, Griz
The Bushmaster
Member
Cut me a break Bogie...I was only trying to help and I posted a warning...Geeez...
bogie
Member
Well, there's folks out there who don't have our experience...
I mean, a few years back I saw a perfectly good .44 magnum with the top of the cylinder and the top strap just plain g-o-h-n. Why? Because someone had told the neophyte reloader to use a whole bunch of Winchester 296. Sounds fine, right?
Well, the neophyte reloader had a can of Win700, and figured that since the number was higher, it was okay to use it.
I mean, a few years back I saw a perfectly good .44 magnum with the top of the cylinder and the top strap just plain g-o-h-n. Why? Because someone had told the neophyte reloader to use a whole bunch of Winchester 296. Sounds fine, right?
Well, the neophyte reloader had a can of Win700, and figured that since the number was higher, it was okay to use it.
Thanks this has helped. I just wonderd as one of the bullets I have (its a rifle round) is not very full. You can here it when you gently give it a shake.
So I'm guessing the faster the burn rate the faster the fps depending on how much is used?
So I'm guessing the faster the burn rate the faster the fps depending on how much is used?
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So I'm guessing the faster the burn rate the faster the fps depending on how much is used?Nope, not always safely.
The faster powders are quicker to reach max pressure and hold the pressures for a shorter period of barrel time then with a slower one. The slower powder builds pressure a bit slower but gives the bullet a "push" for a longer time down the bore resulting in a higher velocity.
You can get faster velocity with a fast powder then with a slower one, but usually the amount (volume/wgt) of each type in a normal loading gives the edge to the slow one.
You are on the right path, but powders are quite a complex subject in reloading, although the active ingredients are few (nitroglycerine & sometimes nitrocellulose) and chemically not terribly complex.
Powders should never be treated as interchangeable, and the powder loaded into factory ammo is not the same as the powder sold to reloaders. Factories load with bulk powder, and we use canister powder. All the reloading data (which should always be the basis for starting a load) is for canister powders. We need to proceed accordingly.
Powders should never be treated as interchangeable, and the powder loaded into factory ammo is not the same as the powder sold to reloaders. Factories load with bulk powder, and we use canister powder. All the reloading data (which should always be the basis for starting a load) is for canister powders. We need to proceed accordingly.
Car Knocker
Member
Well, WWII era ammo is being sold and used regularly with no problem. Viability of old powder is dependent on storage conditions, to a large extent.
The Bushmaster
Member
How will powder suffer from age? I'm staying out of this one or Bogie will get me...
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