how much to FL Sizing increase .223 brass length

[oldfortyfiveauto]

I really like the RCBS gauge, but they get costly with a bunch of calibers to load for. This one works well for most all cartridges with a shoulder.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

 

[gamestalker]

Once you determine how much the shoulder needs to pushed back, you'll have less brass flow during resizing, and your brass will last longer as well. But even so, brass will reach a point usually within the first 3 reloadings, or so, in which it will nearly cease stretching, even if excessively full length resizing.

 

[bigedp51]

CJK8

Normally a full length resizing die will push the shoulder back on the case .002 smaller than minimum headspace when it contacts the shell holder. If your headspace is set .003 over minimum headspace you would be pushing the shoulder back .005 every time you resized you cases. By adding a .003 to .004 shim under the lock ring you would be only be pushing the shoulder back .001 to .002 and not overworking the brass.

How often you have to trim your cases depends on how "fat" and "long" your chamber is and how "skinny" and "short" your reloading dies are. When you resize your cases the brass has only one direction to go and that is forward and into the neck. This is why custom reloading dies are made from three fired cases from "YOUR" chamber to make the dies a perfect fit for your chamber. (minimum resizing of the case)

 

[fguffey]

“By adding a .003 to .004 shim under the lock ring you would be only be pushing the shoulder back .001 to .002 and not overworking the brass”

So much for product knowledge, forget demonstrating skills and knowledge, Ed has been pushing Skip’s spacers, now? I believe it is your money he is trying to spend.

I would suggest, before taking advise from the Internet, purchase a feeler gage and practice, practice practice. Based on the advise Ed just presented, adding a shim beneath the lock ring will raise the lock ring and do nothing for sizing, but, if you adjust the die off the shell holder with Skip’s shims, verify the adjustment with the feeler gage, eventually it will dawn on you, you do not need skip’s shims to adjust the die, when adjusting the die off the shell holder go straight to the transfer/standard for setting air gaps, the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press.

Even if I had Skip’s shims I would find them less than nice to have, one more time, I have a M1917 with .016 thousands head space, or put another way I have a M1917 that has a chamber that is .016 thousands longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, or put another way I have a chamber in a M1917 that is longer than a go-gage length chamber by .011 thousands. the first time I fired the M1917 with .016 thousands head space I fired it with .002 thousands head space.

And I said, the die must be adjusted to zero or .000 off or to the shell holder first, with gigs and gigs of space used to promote Skip’s shims you would think the promoter of the devise would take the time to demonstrate his knowledge and use of the shims. I do not own Skip’s shims, but if I did when using Skip’s shims I would first loosen the lock ring then back it off, then screw the die into the press with the ram raised, once the die contacted the shell holder I would then adjust the lock ring down to make contact with the press THEN secure the lock ring to the die, and, I would call that indexed to .000.

After indexing to .000 I would remove the die from the press, add a shim beneath the lock ring then (again) screw the die down until the lock ring secured the shim to the press, and the part that renders Skip’s shims less than nice to have, I would verify the gap with a standard, the feeler gage. So without Skip’s shims I go straight to the standard/transfer, companion to the press, the feeler gage when adjusting the die to the shell holder.

Lock rings: If in my possession there is a die with the lock ring secured to the die, it is not my die, because I adjust my dies to the shell holder every time.



F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

The problem with the Internet is that we have "SO" many experts who do not know what they are talking about.

1. You have a lot of slop in your reloading die threads that can cause run-out problems, therefore it is very important that the die is centered in the press and the cartridge case is centered in the die.

2. If you loosen the lock ring on your dies playing with feeler gauges your die "MUST BE RE-CENTERED" or your neck run-out will increase.

3. Using shimming washers under the lock ring does "NOT" require adjusting and re-centering your dies, using feeler gauges requires die adjustment and centering and checking neck run-out with "EACH" lock ring die adjustment.

I just purchased a Forster neck bushing and shoulder bump die, the die is adjusted as per normal touching the shell holder plus approximately 1/8 of a turn more. If I do not want shoulder bump I use a .010 shim washer, if I want to bump the shoulder I use thinner washers.

In closing, just because shimming washers or longer shell holders are availably "TODAY" doesn't mean your knuckles have to drag on the ground and use "OLDER" less accurate reloading methods. On top of this all my methods can be found at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ and are used by competitive shooters AKA "The Big Boys".

 

[CJK8]

What I can't get my head around is this. That extra 1/8 of a turn when setting up the dies is so to have the press cam over. If I put a .010" shim washer between the die and the press, I would not think that that would make any difference in how much the die sizes the brass. I sized brass with the dies set up at both the 1/8 of a turn so that the press cammed over and also backing the die out so that it touched the ram without camming over. The die set the shoulder back to the same place in both instances. So, if I turn the die down that extra 1/8 of a turn and then set a shim that is .010" between the die and the press, in my mind, that extra 1/8 of a turn is lowering the die more than .010" will raise the die up. Am I wrong? I have to be if it works for you unless I don't understand what you are saying.

Also, does Home Depot or Lowe's sell washers that are that thin? I was going to go look sometime, but I don't think they would. Thanks.

 

[rcmodel]

One complete 14TPI thread is .0715".
So 1/8 turn would be slightly less then .009".

rc

 

[bigedp51]

Ladies and Germs

Do you actually think once the die contacts the shell holder and you turn the die 1/8th of a turn more that the shell holder is going to compress .009.

All your doing is taking any slop out of the press and making sure the shell holder and die are making maximum 100% contact.

Before fguffey and the invention of the "feeler gauge" there were books and articles on reloading. Pictured below dated 1974 is the Speer number nine reloading manual and a section of the reloading manual entitled:

"Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques"

And during this "SAME" time period shimming washers were used by competitive shooters for their reloading dies and feeler gauges were used to adjust your point gap on your 54 Chevy.

Below the 1974 Speer reloading manual, with "modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques", and how I set up my reloading dies and "NOT" one word about feeler gauges. What does the words "Shade tree mechanic" and Feeler gauges mean to you!

 

[CJK8]

I understand that the extra 1/8 turn is to ensure all play is taken out of the threads as that is why the instructions to the die say to make that 1/8 turn and have the press cam over. What I am struggling to understand is, if you put a .010" washer shim between the press and the die such that you have effectively eliminated that 1/8 turn and the press no longer cams over, haven't you also reintroduced the play in the threads since the die and shell holder are no longer making 100% contact????

 

[rcmodel]

There is no play in the threads if the die lock-ring is tight.

The play is in the press linkage & pins, and the press frame may also flex slightly at cam over.

You are correct that putting a .010" shim under the die lock-ring would elminate the press flex take-up.

But it will still be taken up when you size the case.
But the case shoulder would be pushed back precisely .010" less, if that's what you are trying to do.

rc

 

[CJK8]

Ok, then I don't understand why biged doesn't like feeler gauges and thinks that die will not be centered if I were to do the following. Place a feeler gauge with a thickness of .010" on top of the shell holder, raise the shell holder all the way up, screw the die down until it touches the feeler gauge, and then screw the lock ring down tight. I don't understand how that gives a differrent or less desriable setting than using a .010" washer shim. Thanks.

 

[bigedp51]

CJK8

In the Speer article on "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" the majority of it deals with centering the die body and decaping rod/expander button to increase accuracy and decreasing neck run-out.

The article states that more "INACCURATE" reloaded ammunition is made than "ACCURATE" ammunition because the die body is off center and more importantly the expander button is locked down off center.

The reason I do not like the "feeler gauge method" is because it requires re-centering the die and expander button "EVERY" time you adjust or move the die. This means making and testing dummy rounds for run-out "EVERY" time you move the die.

What fguffey and many of you do not understand is there was a reason the shimming washers and taller shell holders were made and that was to increase accuracy of loaded ammunition and not induce run-out error into your loaded rounds. What angers me is fguffey comments added to the fact he didn't do his home work on these reloading aids or "WHY" they were made in the first place.

The body of the reloading die is "NOT" self centering and the lock ring can pull the die off center and there are important steps in aligning and centering your reloading dies.

1. With the lock ring loose you place a lubed case in the shell holder and raise the ram, this centers the die. Next you lock the lock ring down with the die centered and then release pressure on the press handle and try to rotate the shell holder. If the shell holder binds and will not rotate freely the die body is not yet centered in the press. (the case extractor groove is binding in the shell holder because it is off center)

2. The expander button is centered by leaving the lock ring loose until the button just starts to enter the neck of the case and is "centered" in the neck, then the lock ring is tightened down.

3. Now guess why they make self centering bushing dies that do not have expander buttons.

4. There is nothing wrong with using the feeler gauge method "BUT" it requires the case to be re-centered each and every time you loosen the die lock ring. Using shim washers once the die is setup and centered you "NEVER" have to adjust the die again.

So Mr. fguffey go ahead and tell the world and everyone in it again that I do not know what I'm doing.

Better yet just go to http://www.accurateshooter.com/ and read the reloading articles written by the experts.

"All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read"