How small is too small on elk?

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SRMohawk

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I'm planning on heading to Western Montana this Fall for an elk hunt and I was actually thinking of taking a rifle chambered in 6.5 x 284 Norma. When I phoned the outfitter and mentioned this to him, however, he threw a tantrum and insisted I bring something in .30 cal.

Funny how Scandanavian hunters have been dropping big caribou with 6.5 x 55 rifles since the advent of this chambering, but a 6.5 x 284 Norma (which drives 140-gr projectiles a good 150-200 fps faster than the 6.5 x 55) is far from being enough for a beast of similar constitution.

How many of you would shoot an elk with a 6.5 x 284 Norma (given a 140-gr projectile at 2900 fps (3000+ fps in South Texas climate) and out to what maximum distance?
 
Max Distance...300 yards. Elk are tuff, but they can't take a well placed shot and live. You will be fine so long as you practice.
-Mike
 
Funny, as in peculiar;

A good friend of mine had a guide tell him the same thing last year before he ventured out to Colorado. Hunt was to be on a private ranch and elk run larger than average. Guide claimed bull he killed was 1,100lbs. I guesstimated from photo's that elk is actually 850-900lbs. (I'm a retired gamewarden with degree in Wildlife Mgt., and have killed/dress elk, too).

He lacked a suitable rifle. He has a "Texas Contender" in .223 w/16.5" bbl. that he used for pest control on his farm. Pest's included about 2-3 dozen deer a year! Most all take 1 shot, ranges from 40' to 400yds.

Guide suggested a .30/06 w/ 10x scope, or higher magnification (?!)

I just grinned, and told him that I had his "Elk" rifle. (He also shoots left handed like I do).

Less than 24hrs before he departed, we met at the farm. In a pouring-down rain, he fired three shots from my rifle from the hood of his Suburban at the 250yds that the rifle was sighted in for. 2 of 3 shots hit the 3" target dot.

He was SET !!

He had rifle, and 47rds of ammo. 20rds of Nosler Part., and 27rds of Sierra Soft Points. Was admonished to use "bullets on right for sighting in and practice (sierras), use bullets on left for elk (partitions). He sighed, and said "whatever" !!! I told him that there was a $1 fine for every case that didn't make it back! (I held him to it, and billed him !!!)

He got a lot of peculiar comments and "sideways" glances at the elk camp due to his "Elk" rifle.

When guide told him 6x6 Bull was "exactly" 250yds, he held on the bulls shoulder and let him "have it"!. Bull "humped up", and started walking, staggering. Guide said "keep shootin' till he's on the ground". Second shot made elk pick up pace. Friend said he rushed the third and pulled it. Fourth shot staggered bull again. In rush and apathy, he "pulled" a round from his "overalls" and slapped it the gun and pulled the trigger......... SNAP !!!!
Round was "fished" from the rifle, and handed to guide at his request..... A loaded .223 Rem. !!!!!! *** !!!! He pulled another round from his pocket, chambered it, and hit elk the fourth time as it was "reeling" apparantly getting ready to keel over. This shot "dumped" it like was a wet rag.

Guide slapped him on the back and said, Damn fine shooting !!!!! (?????!)

After some pic's were taken, the guide and assistant rolled the elk over, and stated "Damn, look at those EXIT wounds!!!"

Later at camp, everyone wanted to see the "little CANNON".

WHAT IS IT ????

A Remington mod 7 in 7mm-08., with Leupold 2.5-8x Vari-X III.
Loads..... 140gr Nosler Partitions over 48.0gr of Imr4350 @ 2.775"oal.
chronographed at 2,800fps from 20"bbl.

Seems the three that exited were partitions. The last round fired in haste was a Sierra 140gr GameKing. It broke the spine, and was balled up under the hide on far side. I still weighs 127.5gr and is classic mushroom.

Understand that most of the other hunters in party were shooting 270WM, or LARGER, and were shooting elk 5-8 times.

Later that evening, every one wanted to "look" at that 7.5lb "wonder", considering that they were "toting" 10+lb rifles with "celestial telescopes" for sights.

Funny, Jack O'Conner and many others in years past had LARGE respect for the 7x57 Mauser on Elk.

My brother "kills" his elk with a pre'64 Win M70 featherweight in .308wcf. He uses 150gr Nosler Part's. and has only recovered one bullet from elk, a "Texas heart shot" from about 190yds after cow had been "perforated" by first shot (his words). He wanted to keep cow from running into a deep canyon nearby.

It dosen't take a howitzer to kill an elk. Just a well placed shot from a Normal rifle.

Remember, there have been a LOT of AIRPLANES shot down by 6.5's, 7's, and .30/06, .303's, and 8x57.

GOOD BULLET in GOOD LOCATION................

Shoot Straight..............
 
Nothing at all wrong for the caliber out to about 3 football fields-pretty much a 7MM with a 30-06 sized powder charge behind it.

Use good bullets designed for the game you are after and you should have no trouble. If you are handloading, get in plenty of practice and take more ammo than you need. Never can tell what is going to bump your sights off, and you'll want to re-zero the rifle due to altitude/temp/humidity concerns anyway. Especially if you do get a longer shot.
 
The old rule of thumb for elk is, "Nothing smaller than .30 caliber. The 7mm Mag is an exception to the rule." And my elk rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, a custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen.)

Having said all that, I would have no hesitation in using a 7x57, 7mm-08 or my 6.5 Swedish Mauser for elk. I would, however, use a long, heavy premium bullet in those calibers (after all, why not?)

And if a guide told me I needed a 10X scope for elk, I'd find me another guide.
 
I'd say that if you trust the guide, you should take his advice. His interest lies in making sure that you have a fun, productive hunt, and he might know what he's talking about.

If you don't trust him, then you should probably find a different guide.
 
I'd say that if you trust the guide, you should take his advice. His interest lies in making sure that you have a fun, productive hunt, and he might know what he's talking about.
Click to expand...

One of the ways you'd know not to trust him is by looking at the advice he gives. Certainly if anyone told me I needed a 10-power scope for elk, I'd do a little digging on that person's qualifications.

If I were in the guide's position, I'd rather know how well my client can shoot, what kind of physical condition he's in, and what kind of bullet he's using. I'd rather have a man who can hike and who's using a heavy premium bullet in a smaller caliber than a couch potato with a Super-Magnum that makes him flinch every time he thinks about shooting it.
 
Gents,
Thank you all for your feedback. And in particular, thank you Vern. Curious how you mentioned that I should also be wary of whether the outfitter makes or has made a recommendation in the way of rifle optics. In this case, however, the outfitter told me in passing that he hoped I had a scope on my rig that was not only a variable power job, but that could be turned down as low as 3x. He even went as far as to say that if money were no object when it came to my equipment, that I should have a variable power by Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski, Leica, U.S. Optics, or Leupold. I thought to myself; "Wow, this guy must be ex-military . . . possibly even ex-special forces." BTW, he also insisted that if I didn't already know how to hit a target the size of a stop sign with a medium-caliber, bolt-rifle off hand at 200 yards and run a mile on flat ground under 7 minutes with a rifle and day pack on my person, then I wouldn't be getting one of "The Big Ones"!
 
Sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

Me, I get in condition by hiking. Living in the Ozarks, I have lots of hills to climb. I like to do a daily 5-miler, with about 500 feet of climbing, and then go to a 7-miler with over a thousand feet. I find that helps in the Colorado Rockies where I hunt elk.
 
I'd find another guide. Did he ask for a belted .30 or just a .30? Would he go for a .30-30, but not a 6.5x55? :rolleyes: I mean, there are 30s and there are 30s, ya know. I have a .308 and a 7 mag. I'd not hesitate to hunt elk, appropriate bullet, with either, but I wonder if that guide would pitch a fit over the 7mm rem mag and accept the .308????

I've never hunted with a big game guide. I can't afford the gasoline to ride my SV650 to Colorado right now. But, I have hunted geese a lot with guides and a lot of 'em were dumb as a fence post and couldn't call worth a flip. I've got 40 years of waterfowl experience and I know a good guide from a bad one when it comes to geese and ducks. I don't need no stinkin' guide, actually, if I got a place to set up, but it was part of a hunting club I was in. I know there are some that are good and know what they're doing, but at least with waterfowl, I've found they are outnumbered by the idiots. You really have to look for a good one. I would reckon big game would be no different.
 
The last elk I shot was with a 7mmSTW form my M70 fired from 190 yards. He just stood there. My guide was about to say "hit him agan" then he put his knees down on the ground. When I walked up to him I touched him with my muzzle just to make sure.

I would not have taken that second shot anyway because it was obvious that enough penetration was done. After the blast and the kick of the gun I looked through my scope and saw the blood gushing. I have never seen any thing like that before. I have used .308 on deer for a many years but nothing like the STW.

We relly don't need the 30s on that type of game. But come on don't use the 223 for hack sakes. Its too darn light. One shot should be enough if you take your hunt and stalk seriously.
 
How many of you would shoot an elk with a 6.5 x 284 Norma (given a 140-gr projectile at 2900 fps (3000+ fps in South Texas climate) and out to what maximum distance?
Click to expand...
Id use a 160 gr, well constructed bullet, and shoot at 200 yards or less.

I just got my elk tag:D , and am planning on using my 7mm Mauser with 160 gr partitions @ ~2600 fps.
 
Whatever your local game laws say...

I think 6mm/243 is the minimum caliber for elk in Colorado with a minmum energy rating of 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards and an 85 grain bullet.

That seems LIGHT to me. An elk is a big critter, and while precision shooting is preferred by all, it's not always the case that you can make that perfect shot, or that your bullet performs perfectly.

When people askk me what to take I recommend .270 or .30/06, because you can buy ammo anywhere and you can afford to practice.
 
i have a hunting buddy who hunts with a 6.5 swede....seems to do just fine for him. Hes dropped elk with it before. Just put one shot into its killzone and let it bleed. That whole "keep shooting" mentality is just stupid in my opinion. If you pop em once they are very likely to go lay under a tree close by and try to nurse the wound and will die quickly. If you shoot again then you scare the animal even more then before and they will take off running. Not only are you being more humane to the animal by letting it die faster, you are reducing your packing distance, meat damage, ammo waste, ect ect ect. Just my two cents.
BTW people tell me that my 270 is small for elk......tell the elk that.
 
bullets for elk

That 6.5 calibre is used quite a lot for red deer over here. some one said use a big long premium bullet, i think they are dead right, the heavy long 6.5s seem to punch above thier wieght. The velocity of 2900 seems a little generous to me- but if that is what you are getting then i take your word for it. i also would limit my range and shoot within 200 as above that the tajectory suffers.

the big bullet will dump energy well and ensure you get a good one shot kill.

steve
 
I have shot a few elk and seen quite a few more shot with 284's, 9 out of 10 were shot with a handload of 4350 and Sierra 160 Gamekings with distances from 40 to over 400 yards. They die, quickly. 27/280/30-06 also work VERY well when shooting a heavy for caliber bullet.

Best performance on average I have seen has been a 338 WM with 250 grain Gamekings. I have only seen 3 elk shot with it but it is just a HAMMER. Pow, WHAP, down.

I don't think I like the idea of 140 grain bullets in a 6.5, but then again I have never used a 6.5. I like long for caliber quality bullets, they go deep and kill well.
 
Coz, you crazy basturd! That is some funny ****, man! I can't believe the state actually felt the need to post such a sign!

BTW fellas, this outfitter said he hunts in the timber with a .30-06, while he does long-range work with a .300 Win.Mag. (not at the same time or on the same days, of course). When I asked him why he thought he had to have two different rifles for elk, he explained to me that he'd shot elk at close range "in the timber" with fast .284 and .308 cal. rifles with tragic results, blowing large chunks out of them but not killing them outright because the bullet had exploded upon splashing into the animals hide. "These beasts are still mostly made up of water and you just can't compress water. You can only displace it! And a 180-gr bullet still moving at over 3000 fps just doesn't give the water in the animal enough time to get out of the way. So the bullet yields instead", he replied. Upon his saying this, I immediately remembered how a shooting buddy and I once set up several strings (back to back) of 8-10 milk jugs filled with water and then shot his .308 into them. The 168-gr MKs were blowing through 5-6 of them before stopping. Then he asked me to shoot the last string with my .338 Lapua (250-gr Scenars having an avg. MV of 3050 fps). The bullet never made it out the back side of the first jug!
 
Lots of advice here. How many of you guys are actually regular elk hunters. Reality in the field versus BS that is talked when you are back from a hunt is often radically different.

Would I hunt elk with a 6.5 284? In short, Yes. But then I have killed a dozen elk with a 270 winchester, but I would not suggest others doing so unless they shoot year round and are very familiar with their abilities and equipment. As a general rule though, 30 cal is a good starting point for elk. A quality 30-06 would be a fine choice.

Show respect for your game and make quick clean kills, Very few things are as sickening as watching a big elk that is wounded get away to die a slow lingering painfull death. One of the reasons I hunt very remote places is because I have seen that happen with slob hunters who come west every year.
 
4 troop,
I shoot more than 1500 rounds a year of meticulously crafted handloads through three different rifles (6.5 x 284 Norma, .300 WSM, and .338 Lapua Magnum) at distances ranging from 200 to 1200 yards and I've been doing this for years. Also, my rifles are hardcore precision bolt-guns with thousands of dollars in the best parts and labor money can buy in each of them. Now, though I've never shot a 1000-lb bull elk, I've shot half a dozen other species of deer and antelope at distances out to 600+ yards and I've NEVER needed more than one shot in any of these instances. So my equipment and skill will not be a problem in this instance.
 
SR,

Why not use your .300WSM and take all of the guess work out of it? but if you just really want to use your 6.5 it'll do the job if you do your part. Just be careful to pick your shots and watch your angles.

BTW.

If you use a good bullet there is no .338 Lapua that will stop in one little ole milk jug full of water.

Any of the premium bullets will penetrate end for end on an elk at close range even out of a 3000 FPS + rifle. Your guide must be using crap bullets in his .300. I can promise you that a 180gr X will go all the way through any elk on this planet at 20 yards even when pushed at 3000FPS+. If the outfitter wants to use two rifles that is fine but with decent bullets either will do either job might handily. I am very leery of these kinds of stories. I can’t think of a elk hunting adventure either guiding or hunting ion my own in the last 20 years that I haven’t hunted both timber and long range parks and canyons in the same hunt usually in the same day. Having to go back to the truck and get my timber rifle or my long range rig just doesn’t work in reality.

I like the .308 calibers at 180 grs and up but I've killed elk with smaller. The first elk I ever killed was with a 140 gr bullet out of a .270.

Some of my favorite elk rounds are below. All of these rounds are good long range and make fine timber rigs as well.

.308 win 180 gr bullet @ 2600
.30-06 180gr bullet @ 2700
.300 mag (your choice) 200gr bullet @ 2800
.338 win 250 Gr bullet@ 2700
.375H&H 270gr bullet @ 2600

I don't like 7MM just a personal preference thing. It's nothing more than an belted necked down .30-06. I just use the real thing the first time. ;)

It does just fine on elk.

PS

If I ever had a guide, any guide tell me that I needed a 10X scope for anything I'd get my money back right away. What a DORK. I worry about the low end a hell of a lot more than the high end of the magnification. Of course I don't lob long range artillery at elk either.

I meet to many of these long range heroes out here in Co. I like to take them to the range and put them on the six hundred yard bench and let them whack away at a 12" steel plate. I've yet to see one of these heroes ring it in the first three shots. And that is from a bench on a known exact range under controlled conditions. With a super mag and a lunar observation scope on top. Yet 20 minutes before they all had their hairy 700 yard elk shooting story, cross canyon in a driving snow storm of course.

It really rankles them when I pull out a 19" Steyr Scout with a 2.5X scope on it in .308 win and ring it with all five shots. Of course what they don't know is that I've figured out a long time ago that the top of the frame on that the steel hangs from is just the right hold over for my little .308, about 56 inches high all I need to do is rest the horizontal wire on the top edge of the frame and if there is no wind I can ring it every time. ;) :D

I wouldn't try that on a critter under field conditions. But it sure deflates some of the ultra mag egos out there.
 
I didn't see the sign about staying off the elk.

elk_EDIT.jpg

This one was a one shot kill with the 50cal Barnes bullet at 265 yards quartering away, the bull fell in his tracks and rolled legs up. The hunter that shot him had missed the 1st shot at 250 yards (the farthest I could get him to practice) . There was powder pellots all over the ground as he reloaded as the whole herd ran uphill right at us. At 25 yards they saw us reloading and turned 90 degrees. He regrouped and composed himself and made the second shot. On open country that we have here it is not unusual to wind up with what some would call a long shot. But there can be no cover and real noisey dry ground. He measured 365".


Where I live is a primitive weapons area so we get alot of hunters with bow & arrow and muzzleloaders. The bullet that I've seen make one shot kills the most is the Barnes 50 caliber with sabot.
The only wounds that get away that Ive seen with have been with arrows.
 
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