How the 4 rules saved my skin-- OR-- How my Rock Island tried to kill my car! (AD)

[Walkalong]

Just for clarification, what does 'dropping the slide on a chambered round' mean? How do you do it? (learning what not to do here).

The slide is back. You drop a round in the barrel. Then you release the slide, letting it bang home. It is very bad for the extractor. It can also cause the hammer to literally bounce off the sear and drop. The 1/2 cock should catch it, if made properly, should that is.

The hammer should not follow on a 1911 when releasing the slide on an empty chamber. If it does, there is something wrong. Even if it does not follow, it is hard on the sear/hammer. It can damage the sear and the hammer hooks, eventually making it dangerous. Even with parts in good shape, if someone has tinkered with the sear spring etc, the hammer can follow when a slide is released on an empty chamber, even if it does not when dropped on an empty round. The chambering of a round from the mag slows the slide down. When it is released on an empty chamber, the slide hits a lot harder.

 

[A2]

Keaner,

Keep us posted as to what RIA has to say/do.

 

[FLA2760]

"Never chamber around this way, period".

+1
Thank God you are ok.

 

[Gottahaveone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkalong
Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round.
Erm. Those are the only two options. Are you actually suggesting never dropping the slide, no matter what? That seems... impractical.

I expect that what was meant by "never slam a slide home on a round" is actually saying "never slam a a slide home on a round that's been manually placed into the chamber"

So those *aren't* the only two options, dropping the slide to strip a round from the magazine is the third option.....

 

[Keaner]

I'll keep you updated on RIA's response. At the moment: I emailed them on saturday, and got a response from Ivan who said to mail it in and they would take care of it.

Before I got the response, I called and talked to a gunsmith there, who said the same thing. I put it into the mail today, they'll have it tomorrow, so hopefully they can get it looked into early this week.

 

[jad0110]

This may be because of a phenomenon called "Auditory Exclusion."

Ah yes, I do this with my wife when I'm on THR .

---

Interesting that 3 RIA owners have had this same problem. A bad batch of out-of-spec sears perhaps? I know, it could be other problems, but that seems a likely candidate.

I'd would do a google and see if there are more incidents of this, but it is time to do some yard work ...

 

[nplant]

You're very lucky the hammer only followed once. Keep shooting that gun and the hammer will begin to do double-taps without your permission, and finally full auto if it is left unchecked. Not fun when you don't want it to happen.

 

[Keaner]

You're very lucky the hammer only followed once. Keep shooting that gun and the hammer will begin to do double-taps without your permission, and finally full auto if it is left unchecked. Not fun when you don't want it to happen.

I can't imagine what I would have done if it had done that while loading from a magazine. I'd never even thought to load from a magazine with only one round in it, so I wouldn't ever do that.

However, if this gun had gone full-auto on me, I most likely would have been injured. I dropped the slide with my shooting hand, so my grip wasn't very good(the gun's grip was held entirely in my fingers, with the thumb extended to the slide release), so this would have caused very significant damage.

I'm hoping that RIA will upgrade a few of the components for me to something that won't wear in a way that causes this issue.

 

[RickW]

I have been thinking about a RIA pistol but this has me thinking other wise.

 

[Cougfan2]

I don't know that this incident would keep from buying an RIA. I had some disasterous failures with a $1,000 1911. EVERYONE makes a lemon now and then.

Don't know that RIA would replace the old parts with better ones. They will probably just replace with standard parts, but I would expect they will give a little extra attention to finish details and to any kind of burrs.

 

[cktad]

Here is the Armscor/RIA Forum over on 1911.org http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=17. Ivan and Ray post there and answers questions. It must not be a common problem as I don't see any others postings about it. I have 2 RIAs and don't have any problems. Post over there and see what others who own them say.

 

[FCFC]

Um, you shot your vehicle. And your mag.

Consider how much medical bills would be if that round/ricochet had hit him. He could buy a new car, gun, and magazine and it would still be cheaper than the medical bill, not to mention the chance of death or permanent injury.

No. I don't have to consider those hypothetical medical bills. Nor his hypothetical funeral expense...

The issue is not whether he avoided shooting himself. Or whether he was better off shooting a beater car instead of his new Lexus. The issue is whether OP's handling of his gun (and ammunition) constituted a negligent discharge. It clearly was, based on his own statments.

@ the OP
You did a good job. Gun was pointed in a safe direction and you didn't get hurt.

Hardly a "good job." OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Bad outcome. All NDs are.

 

[WayneConrad]

OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Oh? Which Oregon state law did Keaner violate?

I think you've made your point that you believe it to be a negligent discharge. You are, for the most part, alone in your belief. That does not make you wrong--plenty of geniuses were alone. But it should make you wonder. To continue to hammer the point home as you do, and now to add to it this assertion that Keaner has broken the law, without any evidence to support it, well, that's just argumentative.

 

[Keaner]

FCFC: You STILL haven't answered the questions I posed earlier, so I doubt you are going to answer WayneConrad's.

However, just so you don't have to go back to read: what handling did you see that I did that caused the firearm to go off? My finger was off the trigger, it was pointed in a safe direction.

As for loading a round in that manner, it is not good for the firearm as many have said, however it should not (and DID not) cause the weapon fire. What caused the weapon to fire was a defect in the firearm's sear system.

For anyone's information who cares. When I went to drop the weapon off at a gun shop to have them ship back (I would have shipped it myself, but the UPS store and Kinkos wouldn't accept it, and there isn't a reasonably close 'real' post office), he placed a magazine in it to try and load a round correctly (snap caps obviously), and the hammer dropped anyway.

If the mere act of chambering a round is cause for negligence, than anyone who has ever fired a gun is negligent.

 

[Walkalong]

Originally Posted by walkalong
Yes, the gun needs fixing, but never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, and never slam a slide home on a round.

I expect that what was meant by "never slam a slide home on a round" is actually saying "never slam a a slide home on a round that's been manually placed into the chamber"

Yes, I did not word it well.

Are you actually suggesting never dropping the slide, no matter what? That seems... impractical.

Yep. Never slam a slide home on an empty chamber, for reasons I outlined. Maybe I was not clear.

So those *aren't* the only two options, dropping the slide to strip a round from the magazine is the third option.....

Third option? It is the first and only acceptable option.

Do people do it. Yep. Does it instantly break something. Nope. Have I done it. Yep. Is it bad for the pistol and can enough of it cause problems. YEP.

 

[FCFC]

OP had an ND. Shot up his car by improperly handling a carry gun that hadn't been checked out properly. Risked getting arrested.

Oh? Which Oregon state law did Keaner violate?

Who said it was a state law?

I don't know for sure if Keaner was guilty of a law violation. But I have enough support to say he "risked getting arrested." Depends where he was. He indicated he was in Portland when he discharged his gun.

Here's the code for Portland OR on the matter:

http://www.portlandonline.com/Auditor/index.cfm?c=28514#cid_15438

14A.60.020 Discharge of a Firearm.
(Amended by Ordinance No. 178428, effective May 26, 2004.)

A. It is unlawful for any person to discharge a firearm in the City or upon its boundaries.

B. This Section does not apply to:
1. A person discharging a firearm in the lawful defense of person or property;

2. A person discharging a firearm on a public or private shooting range, shooting gallery, or other area designed, built, and lawfully operating for the purpose of target shooting;

3. A person conducting an athletic contest who fires blank ammunition toward the sky;

4. A person authorized to fire blank ammunition as part of military or police ceremonies;

5. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to discharge blank ammunition for a lawful purpose;

6. Hunter safety instructors of the Oregon State Game Commission or their pupils who are engaged in hunter safety training classes sponsored by the Commission;

7. A police officer in the performance of official duty;

8. Employees or contractors of the Port of Portland engaged in flight safety hazard abatement at and around Portland International Airport to comply with FAR Part 139.337.


I don't see an exclusion for:

Citizen who is being "kind of lazy" and is trying a new (and generally unrecommended) method to charge his carry gun out in public.

I think you've made your point that you believe it to be a negligent discharge. You are, for the most part, alone in your belief.

I doubt that I am alone in my belief. Your own statement acknowledges that.

It's not politically correct on gun forums to point out to a guy who mishandled his gun that he had an ND. The results are more "Glad you're OK" and "Could have been worse!" comments than "You should have checked out your gun more thoroughly before you committed it to carry status." or "What the heck are you thinking, loading up a round in the chamber like that?"

Funny how that works out. But it doesn't help the fellow very much. He actually started off this thread by saying "I am still ND-less..." Doesn't help the anyone to fail to critically analyze his incident.

To continue to hammer the point home as you do, and now to add to it this assertion that Keaner has broken the law, without any evidence to support it, well, that's just argumentative.

Please read my original statements. I said: "He risked getting arrested." "He's lucky he didn't get arrested."

You're changing it to something else. That's false argumentation. Easy to spot.

 

[hoosier8]

Keaner: Any 1911 can do this. There is a whole litany of procedures to test the proper effectiveness of the 1911 safeties. I bought a 1980's Springfield milspec. Before I discovered the method of testing the safeties, I was playing with it one day, unloaded, and after pulling hard on the trigger with the safety on, and the hammer dropped on the third pull. This after carrying it for awhile. I ended up having to replace the safety.

I am sorry that I don't have that testing procedure handy but you could Google it, I am sure. It is probably in any 1911 Armory guide. I now test my 1911's before I put them into service as a habit (your video is one of the tests).

I guess the moral of the story is that there is more to learn, and the more you learn, the safer you will be.

 

[WayneConrad]

Citizen who is being "kind of lazy" and is trying a new (and generally unrecommended) method to charge his carry gun out in public.

I object to this characterization of Keaner's actions. It's a borderline attack upon his character.

Keaner agrees with you that the way he loaded the pistol was poor. However, he has explained that the poor method he used to load the pistol was not the reason it discharged. Is his explanation unreasonable?

 

[General Geoff]

Accidental discharge resultant from a gun with a malfunction that surfaced during a less-than-ideal loading procedure.

Still an accidental discharge.


If you slam the hood on your car instead of gently pushing it closed, and the car slips out of gear and rolls into a ditch, is it your fault?

 

[Odd Job]

Looks like a genuine AD to me.
I have had one ND. My finger was on the trigger at the time.

I've also X-rayed a guy who had a ND while seated in his vehicle. He was handling a Lorcin .45 tucked in the front of his pants and there was a discharge. He put a Black Talon through his inner thigh. It missed his scrotum by a few millimetres and made a large 5cm exit wound at the back of his thigh. The round went through the seat and he recovered it, perfectly expanded, and showed it to me later that same evening.
Luckily he missed his femoral artery and didn't do any neurological damage. He went home the same day with stitches and antibiotics.

 

[nplant]

If you're going to load your weapon anywhere that there is not an adequate backstop to point at, technically, you did violate one of the four rules. I guess, though, that since you call this your beater car, it's not really something you don't want to destroy, so I can see how you would consider that pointing it at your car is a "safe direction."

That said, a car is made of some soft metal and some harder metal. A ricochet could have ruined your day (even worse than this did).

Maybe it would be a good idea to own one of these:
http://www.safedirection.com/ballisticcontainment/academypad.html

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

As far as all this talk against dropping slides on chambered rounds is concerned, I drop my bolt on chambered rounds in my shotgun every time I use it. A well built gun should not slam-fire.

The issue here that was never addressed is if he had a loaded magazine in the gun when he released the slide onto a chambered round. That method is known to cause malfunctions.

 

[Keaner]

No loaded magazine in the gun. It was completely empty except for that one poorly chambered round.

That pad does look pretty cool actually... It might be something to consider. For the moment, I think I'll just not unload the gun in any situation but while I'm home, and set up some sort of sand-box to protect my apartment.

 

[230RN]

The issue here that was never addressed is if he had a loaded magazine in the gun when he released the slide onto a chambered round. That method is known to cause malfunctions.

I'm not clear on what you mean here, unless you're using sarcasm.

Letting the slide pull up a round from the mag while a loaded cartridge is all or part way into the chamber?

Seems to me if the nose of the cartridge coming up doesn't jam on the rim of the partly chambered round (most likely effect), it might fire the round sitting there in the chamber, leading to a "malfunction," AKA KB.

I doubt it, but is that what you mean?

 

[hankdatank1362]

If you're going to load your weapon anywhere that there is not an adequate backstop to point at, technically, you did violate one of the four rules.

When releasing the slide, or charging the pistol in any other manner, I point the muzzle at the ground, unless I'm in the middle of a firing string or at the range.

However, when in a car, pointing at the ground isn't so easy. You have console and floorboard. His console just happened to be the unlucky recipient of hot lead.

And hammer follow= ACCIDENTAL discharge, mechanical in nature, for all those (read: FCFC) who seem to think otherwise.

Yes, dropping the slide on one in the pipe is a bad idea, for many reasons. But that's not what caused the AD.

Here's a good rule of thumb. If the gun goes off without activation of the trigger, its a friggin AD.