how to deal with gun sale fraud?

[Koblenz]

A couple of weeks ago I purchased an Indian Ishapore SMLE in .308 from a dealer in the Atlanta Farmers's Market gun show. The bolt was held from moving by a plastic tie. I have seen a lot of guns in gun shows tied this way, and assumed it was a safety measure against accidental firing.

However, when I got home and removed the tie, I found the bolt would not close into locked position upon cocking. I can push the bolt foward and turn down the handle, but as soon as I release the handle, the cocking spring forces the bolt to open and slide back a few inches.

I have not tried to do this loading live ammunition for fear of it not being safe.

So, essentially I was sold a broken gun. I sent an e-mail to the dealer and told him about the problem. I have his e-mail, phone, and address from his business card he gave me.

He phoned my office number on Martin Luther King Day (I was off work for the holiday so I did not find the message until the next day). He offered to have his gunsmith look at the gun and try to fix it. He told me to call his pager number.

That is the last I have heard from him. I phoned his pager number numerous times last week but he never responded. I also sent a second e-mail, to which he also failed to respond.

So my question is, what legal recourse(s) do I have to get a refund or repair of the gun? I have the seller's name and address and will get the canceled check for the sale of the gun with my next bank statement. I believe there is a small claims court in the state of Georgia for such occassions. In addition, I am wondering if I can obtain assistance from the Gun Show owner, who might not want any disreputable dealers in his show? Also, I have considered contacting BATF regarding the matter, and finally, the gun show was held at a State of Georgia facility, the exhibition hall of the State Farmers' Market, so perhaps that state agency might be willing to get involved in any fraud occuring in their facility.

At this point I believe the seller clearly indends to avoid resolving this issue. I am thinking that my first step (well, second after I first tried to resolve the problem with the seller), should be to contact the owner of the gun show and see if he is able to exert any influence on the seller. What do you think?

 

[stevemis]

If the gun came with a warranty (which it probably didn't) then you might have some recourse. Since it most likely was sold as-is, there probably isn't much you can do.

Send him a nicely written email and try to set up a time for his smith to check it out.

 

[Leatherneck]

Wow. The dealer expressed his intention to make it right, and when communications broke down on either his end or yours, you start talking Small Claims Court?

Why not give him a chance to fix the Smelly before you jump him?

TC

 

[MakAttak]

Wow. The dealer expressed his intention to make it right, and when communications broke down on either his end or yours, you start talking Small Claims Court?

Why not give him a chance to fix the Smelly before you jump him?

TC

He's spent a week trying to contact the dealer. How much longer should he put up with delays?

 

[Koblenz]

when communications broke down on either his end or yours

I tried phoning his pager umpteen times for the remainder of the week following January 21. He also has my work phone but has not called again or left any messages. Third, I sent another polite e-mail last week to which he has never replied. Which end do you think communications broke down on? I will at least await the return of my canceled check before proceeding with further action, by which time he will have had a heck of a lot of time to contact me by phone or e-mail. He also has my address on the ATF form I filled out - maybe my home phone number, too. I forget what all I had to write on that damned form.

I certainly don't think the communications broke down on my end. Why would he would leave a message on my phone offering to fix the gun and then cease further contact with me? I have not spoken or written any unpolite or threatening statements to him. This blog is the first place I have broached the possibility of taking legal action, and even if he reads this blog and put two and two together, and figures out I am the one he sold the broken SMLE to, he would not have found out before this morning.

Why not give him a chance to fix the Smelly before you jump him?

It has now been nine days since I first tried to contact him. He does not return phone calls nor has he responding to a second e-mail. Seems to me I have been giving him plenty of time so far.

If the gun came with a warranty (which it probably didn't) then you might have some recourse. Since it most likely was sold as-is, there probably isn't much you can do.

As best I recall from the Business Law course I took many years ago, all products are covered by an implied "fitness for the particular purpose" warranty, whether the seller offers a written warranty or not. So if someone sells a gun, unless they specifically inform the buyer that they are selling a broken gun for parts only, I think the general warranty will apply. A gun is meant to be shot, so it is not fit for that purpose if the bolt doesn't work.

Send him a nicely written email and try to set up a time for his smith to check it out.

Already did that - twice. Both e-mails were very politely written. How many polite e-mails would you write before finally taking more serious action? Unless he has found this thread and figured out who I am, he has heard no threatening or impolite language from me - so far.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

If the gun came with a warranty (which it probably didn't) then you might have some recourse. Since it most likely was sold as-is, there probably isn't much you can do.

IANAL, and normally I think what you say would be true; however, if the seller himself acknowledged a problem, enough so that he'd get his smith to look at it and fix it, then I think there's cause enough for a small claims suit if the seller isn't willing to fix it or follow through with what he said he'd do.

Also, I would argue that the fault being quite obvious once the tie was removed and the purchaser had no authority to remove the tie in order to fully examine the item, then the seller had an obligation to mention the fault. It would seem to me to fall under the category of "implied warranty of merchantability"; in other words, that the rifle is fully operational as a rifle (the bolt works and stays in place), unless it was expressly written "as is" (as mentioned above).

So -- that's why the courts are there: to settle issues such as this.

If I were you (Koblenz), I'd send another email or an actual letter stating your willingness to go to court unless he follows through with what he said he'd do.

I'd simply say, "look, I know I bought this rifle "as is" (if you did), but when I called you and told you of the issues and you said you'd fix it, you need to do so." He, in effect, nullified the "as is" part of the sale by saying he'd fix it.

ETA: Looks like I was typing when you posted.

 

[saltpepperPA]

It doesn't sound like fraud to me... but I would write to him letting him know that you will be seeking legal council. If that doesn't light a fire then you should talk to a lawyer.

 

[Koblenz]

Yes, I know I can proceed with contacting a lawyer or filing a complaint in Small Claims Court. But I was thinking it would be a lot less hastle to take less drastic measures first. I am also very puzzled by the sellers' actions so far. He first called and offered to take the gun to his gunsmith. Based on what he told me in the phone message he left I would consider him to be an honest person and all around good guy.

But that was on January 21, and since then he has not answered my pages or second e-mail, so he is a hard one to figure out. It could be that the bolt was tied for safety reasons, or to prevent a buyer from discovering the bad bolt. Only the seller knows the truth about that.

Anyhow, I was thinking my next step should be to contact the owner of the gun show. He should have some influence over the folks he lets exhibit at his show, and might be willing to intervene. He might not want his gun shows to get a reputation as a place where customers are (maybe) defrauded. I know if I were running a gun show and was getting complaints about (possible) fraud, I would ask the dealer to solve the problem or find another gun show to exhibit his wares.

What do you think? Should contacting the gun show operator be my next step?

My interest is in just getting the problem solved by the path of least resistance. That should have been dealing with the seller himself, but he for some reason has not responded to me since January 21. So I need to start thinking about step 2. Court will be my last resort.

 

[Jim K]

One thought, have you tried having the gun looked at by a friend or someone who is knowledgeable about those guns? I suspect the problem is minor, but don't want to get into that sight unseen. Not letting the seller off the hook, but fixing the problem may be easier than getting the seller to do it.

Jim

 

[Robert Hairless]

In all my years of attending gun shows I've only encountered one exhibitor who wouldn't snip that plastic tie to allow closer inspection and functioning by a serious prospective buyer. I walked away from that one who didn't.

 

[Koblenz]

I've only encountered one exhibitor who wouldn't snip that plastic tie

Yes, that's a good point. I have learned a lesson. From now on I won't buy another gun unless the dealer will let me inspect it thoroughly.

have you tried having the gun looked at by a friend or someone who is knowledgeable about those guns?

Excellent idea. Right now I don't know anyone to do that. I could take it to a nearby gun shop, I suppose. Anybody know of anyone in the Atlanta, Ga. area that is a collector of the Ishapore Enfields? The fact is, these guns seem to be pretty rare around Atlanta. I almost never see them for sale either in gun shops or at gun shows. There was only one other one for sale at the show where I bought mine.

It was a version converted to a carbine by Century Arms International. I rejected that one as a possible purchase as soon as the dealer told me it came from CAI. I have read about a lot of botched conversion jobs on guns by CAI, so I won't buy a gun from that distributor.

Yes, I think my next step will have a gunsmith take a look at it. Thanks for the suggestion, Jim.

 

[Master Blaster]

However, when I got home and removed the tie, I found the bolt would not close into locked position upon cocking. I can push the bolt foward and turn down the handle, but as soon as I release the handle, the cocking spring forces the bolt to open and slide back a few inches.

Enfields cock on closing, has the bolt head been screwed all the way down?, you could remove the bolt and check, the bolt head unscrews and the striker and spring are inside. I have read that you have to slam an enfield closed sometimes due to the cock on closing feature.

 

[ScottsGT]

Enfields cock on closing, has the bolt head been screwed all the way down?, you could remove the bolt and check, the bolt head unscrews and the striker and spring are inside. I have read that you have to slam an enfield closed sometimes due to the cock on closing feature.

Ditto......I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. Might be a simple problem.

 

[smithbm]

In your next e-mail to him politely let him know that you'll be filing a report with the better business bureau for arbitration on XX date. If he doesn't respond by the specified date file a report online and I guarantee you'll hear from him within the week (unless he's in the hospital or something else along those lines). I've been down this road before and it usually helps put the ball in your court.

 

[Wheeler44]

Enfields cock on closing but your problem may be easier than that. Remove the bolt from the rifle. make sure the bolt head is screwed "all the way in" then insert back into the rifle. I think that fixed your problem. Oh make sure the safety is not engaged when you re-install the bolt.

 

[fearless leader]

You should confront him on the Jerry Springer Show, or call Steve Wilkos

 

[atk]

An incident happened very similar to this on a different forum I used to frequent. An individual made a purchase from a metal smith for a very expensive work (much more than you'd pay for a SMLE). Soon thereafter, the smith fell completely out of contact with everyone. The lack of contact lasted about three months before anyone heard anything. When contact was reestablished, it turned out that the smith had fallen deathly ill, and hadn't kept sufficient records for anyone else to take over for him.

 

[Javelin]

I have his e-mail, phone, and address from his business card he gave me.

He gave you his legit business card so it doesnt prove intent to rip you off and leave you hanging. I would call, leave a message, and tell him you are trying to make this right and need help. Since you have his address you might just stop by one weekend. FTF is always the best way to resolve things I have found.

 

[Koblenz]

Still no response from the seller. In the meantime, I took the gun by a local gun shop which has a gunsmith. They told me their gunsmith does not work on old surplus military rifes.

 

[ScottsGT]

Maybe if you would fill out your profile, you just might find someone here on the board that lives in your area that could help you out.

 

[Koblenz]

"Since you have his address you might just stop by one weekend. FTF is always the best way to resolve things I have found."

I plan to try to locate him at the next gun show. I will bring along the Ishapore and show him the problem.

Maybe if you would fill out your profile

Since I own a pretty large gun collection, I am very careful about revealing my real name, address, etc. I don't know if burglars check these forums to try and find targets for burglary, but it is a possibility. I will just reveal that I live in a southwest suburb of Atlanta. Even my e-mail address contains my full name, so if that were revealed someone could look me up in the phone book, find my address, and collect themselves a nice cash of guns some day when we're not home.

 

[Koblenz]

I went to step two and sent an e-mail asking for the intervention of the gun show owner. The show was Gun Shows of the South, at the Georgia State Farmers Market on January 19-20. It has been about 10 days since I sent the e-mail and have never recieved an answer. So much for hoping the gun show owner would intervene.

I have been going slow at resolving this thing due to being very busy with other things, and also wanting to give the parties involved time to respond.

But it is about time to take step three. The gun show was in a building owned by the Georgia State Dept. of Agriculture. If the show owner does not care if his dealers sell broken guns to customers, I am betting that if I report the incident to Georgia state officials they will pay attention. I can't see the state gov't condoning or ignoring fraud in its facilities.

The lesson to anyone attending Gun Shows of the South is to be very careful to inspect carefully any gun you buy at one of those shows. As far as I can tell, unscrupulous dealers attend these shows, and the owner does not appear to want to become involved in assisting customers who are victims of such dealers.

 

[Animal Mother]

The gun show was in a building owned by the Georgia State Dept. of Agriculture. If the show owner does not care if his dealers sell broken guns to customers, I am betting that if I report the incident to Georgia state officials they will pay attention.

That's a real good way to make sure that facility never hosts another gunshow, over a what is probably a $50 problem with a $200 gun. You may want to think about actually driving to his store and seeing the dealer FTF before you start making a headache for the people who allow gunshows to be hosted at their facilities. I'd be ticked if I was you, but you still have a lot of options at your disposal. For one thing, I would call these people directly. Lots of people in this business don't check their email regularly if at all. The lack of response could simply be because they haven't checked their email in a very long time, this isn't unheard of. A phone call, registered letter, or face to face meeting is a much more certain communications medium than a pager or an email address. Be patient, as these things usually take time. If you have to get the work done yourself, I've had some work done to my Enfield by Scott Stonehill and he has very reasonable prices and excellent service: http://www.customscrewsandmore.com/default.html