How to deal with violent criminals who are cop impersonators?

[GuyWithQuestions]

I was doing research on different serial killers from a crime library website and found that quite a few serial killers tricked their victims into a vulnerable position by pretending to be cops. The only woman who escaped from the famous serious killer Ted Bundy was told by Ted that he was a cop and she needed to go with him to the police station for questioning. She didn't believe him at first because he wasn't in uniform, but then he pulled out a fake badge. I read on the crime library about another killer who had a fake FBI badge so that he could trick his victim into letting him come into her home. Just stumbling across those who've made fake IDs, it looks like anyone can make a fake police badge that looks real to the ordinary citizen. Also, there was a thread on THR that used the news story of a criminal who would put lights on his ordinary civilian vehicle, pull behind someone, flash the lights, and then when they pulled over because they believed it was one of those undercover cop cars with hidden lights, he would rob them. I read in an article that one way thieves rob tourists over seas is to pretend that they're cops.

So as a strategies and tactics question, how do you deal with these types of situations? If the situation seems fishy, you don't want to be dead, but you don't want to get in trouble for giving law enforcement officers trouble by showing skepticism. I understand that there are penalties for impersonating law enforcement, but if the person is punished after the fact, it's too late if he happens to be a killer! Is there a way that's legal to know for sure if someone's a fake?

I was talking to someone about this the other day and he said if a car that looks like a civilian's turns on some flashing lights, to drive to the nearest police station and then pull over. I'm not sure that that would be wise because if it's a real officer, you're in trouble for trying to flee from law enforcement. In the case where someone knocks on your door without a uniform but pulls out a badge and asks to come inside or to walk with him to a place not far away to ask some questions or claims he's making an arrest or needs to detain you, is it legal to ask to call the police station beforehand? If someone said that he was an undercover police officer and showed me a badge, I would feel very uneasy unless he also had a uniform on.

 

[george29]

For anyone being pulled over at night, the best solution is to stop at a well lit public location (gas station, fire department, all night supermarket). If you are out in the country and these are not options, turn on your 4 ways, slow down 5 - 10 mph below speed limit, call 911 and explain your situation and only stop once the 911 operator tells you it is alright to do so.

911 operators are usually sharp cookies and are trained to help you and the responding officers for a good outcome.

Same goes for a knock at the door late at night. Call 911 to verify.

 

[IllHunter]

Small tells...

If the real police come to ask questions, don't they always come in twos?

I would expect two, would be listening intently to my intuition and would call to check out the singleton inquirer.

 

[george29]

Never assume anything.

 

[Jeff White]

f the real police come to ask questions, don't they always come in twos?

No they don't. There are a lot of places in Illinois and the rest of the country where one man patrol is the norm.

It's better to call the non-emergency number for your local police then it is to call 911 to verify if an officer is really who he says he is. In many places 911 is totally separate from the police department and the 911 operator will not have any idea what the officer who is trying to pull you over is doing.

If you really and honestly are afraid of an impostor, no officer I know is going to complain if you drive to a well lighted public place to be pulled over and no plainclothes officer at your door is going to complain if you call and verify his/her identity.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

I posted this story last year:

Maryland man, 34, charged with pretending to be a policeman

Fake officer, real arrest
Man, 34, charged with pretending to be a policeman
By Annie Linskey
sun reporter
Originally published March 8, 2006

A 34-year-old bail bondsman and grocery store security guard was charged in Anne Arundel County with impersonating an officer after an investigation that began when he allegedly used emergency lights to pull over another vehicle that contained two real policemen. . . .

911 in some areas rings busy, or has long periods of wait. Anne Arundel County police gave this advice:

Lt. David D. Waltemeyer Jr., a county police spokesman, said anyone who suspects that he is being pulled over by a person impersonating a police officer can call 911 to check with a dispatcher.

Waltemeyer also said people being pulled over by a plainclothes officer can ask to see a police identification card and can request that a uniformed officer be dispatched to the stop.

Where I live here in PA, the police may not make routine traffic stops unless they are in uniform. I'd suggest if someone comes to the door, knocking and claiming to be there on police business, use your intuition if he is not in uniform. Ask for his name, and department, and direct line to that office to check up on him.

Police lightbars, or the more hidden variaties, are not cheap and take skill to install. When you see the red and blue flashing behind you, its an Officer. If someone approaches you on a routine stop not in uniform claiming to be one, ask for a uniformed officer.

If its not a routine stop, you won't have much time to say anything. The instances where the call goes out over the radio for "any and all respond", and you or your car matches the description, you're gonna get pulled out at gunpoint. Its up to you to decide how it is you want to respond to it.

 

[HankB]

Police lightbars, or the more hidden variaties, are not cheap and take skill to install. When you see the red and blue flashing behind you, its an Officer.

Not necessarily. A few years back there was a guy in the Austin,TX area that had outfitted his car with flashing "police" type lights, to make it look like an unmarked car. I don't have all the details at my fingertips, but I believe he . . . abused . . . a number of women before being caught.

I'd certainly stop for a marked car with a conspicuous light bar on top, driven by a uniformed LEO . . . an unmarked car, one meant to prevent you from recognizing it as the police . . . uh-uh.

 

[Titan6]

You can buy whatever color police light bars you want at JCWhitney.com with headlight alternator for less tham $300.

In one town I lived in there was only one detective. Whenever he went somewhere to question people he was always on his own.

In Northern Virginia many years ago there was a pervert who had outfited his vehicle with the latest in concealed lights and went around pulling women over at night and accosting them.

In Florida there was another nut who went and bought himself a full uniform, real badge and duty gun. He would go to the county dispatch yard and sign himself out a car and drive around on shift. He would pull people over but since he did not have a ticket book give them warnings instead.

Such things are rare but were I a single woman alone at night and knew I was many times more likely to be the victim of an assault or serial killer I would not take chances. Call 911. Keep driving (slowly) until you can get a call through. If you are driving slow and not presenting a safety hazard than a forced stop is not normally allowed. If you come to a road block stop .

 

[Boats]

In a vehicle, if you are being lit up and don't stop, eventually more units will approach to give chase or cut you off. It is unlikely that they will all be fakes.

At home, anyone purporting to be a cop at my door at any time I am there had best be ready to wait for a dispatch confirmation or be ready to face the Mossberg if the issue is forced then and there. We have had false flag home invasions here before and I know I'd unload on suspicion rather than guess "wrong."

 

[sm]

Blue Rapist and resulting Copy Cats resulted in changes being made by some Depts.

Around here, unmarked State cars had the State Police Emblem on Passenger door, they would pull alongside a vehicle to show the driver the official State Police Emblem.

This was advertised on Radio, TV and Newspapers.
It was advertised :
-These various unmarked vehicles, from Old trucks, to new sports cars, to you name it, would have this emblem. Blue lights might be any configuration from inside grill, to dash mount to whatever.
-Only these vehicles or Marked units would be used to pull folks over.
State [bigger cities too] respected the public concerns, and wanted to communicate effectively.

If in doubt, maintain a safe speed, and pull over in a well lighted area. Feel free to find a public place to pull over.
Use common sense, meaning don't drive 50 miles to find a place.

~~
Rural areas.
One advantage is most folks know one another.

Disadvantage is folks that are not from around that area traveling through, and if the dept did not have the funding to do as bigger cities , state, also advised folks to maintain a safe speed, find a well lighted area, public place or even if they happened to see a Fire, or Police Station pull in there.

Cell phones were not "out" when we had our first Blue Light Rapist.
Since that time, calling the non-emergency number, and confirming is now advised using cell phone.


Undercover LEO flashed the blues on me one morning about 2 am coming in.
Porsche, compliments of a busted drug dealer, and the UC was a lady.
No official emblem and with all the goings on,
I kept going, reached a all night diner where a Marked Unit was.

See I was supposed to meet this lady for coffee and something to eat.
"Just thought I'd flash you and give you a thrill, how do like my new ride ?" - she said.

 

[JCF]

Ahhh... LEO impersonation.

Once again, the true and pitiful adventures of Ace Singh: Narcotics Detective.


http://www.fijifox.com/news/publish/printer_25.shtml

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/8769813p-9650103c.html

http://www.modbee.com/local/whatever/story/11636162p-12366307c.html

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/13300329p-13929013c.html

 

[BullfrogKen]

Titan6 said: You can buy whatever color police light bars you want at JCWhitney.com with headlight alternator for less tham $300.

Sure you can . . . I said they were not cheap, and that they take skill to install. People can get used Crown Vics, and spotlights, and put decals on them too. That doesn't mean that this is a fight we need to spend lots of time preparing for.

MOST of the time, the majority of the time, we see the red and blue lights spinning they are official. Every once in a while someone gets cute, and decides he will mimic the Police. Once in a great while someone actually goes as far as to outfit himself to impersonate one. More frequently than a cop impersonator are instances where the public is victimized by a cop using his office to extort money or sex from others. This level of cop impersonation, and the likelihood you'll encounter it, is about as rare as being struck by lightning.


Prepare for it if you wish, but remember that the man you encounter with the lights and badge is most likely who he claims to be. How far you choose to disbelieve him, and the lengths you go to avoid the business he has to conduct, may or may not play out well for you. Pull out the Mossberg and unload "on suspicion" at your peril.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Not too many miles away from my actual home is where Ted Bundy pretended to be a cop with the only victim who escaped from him. He also killed victims nearby where I live, and who knows if he tried some of the same con methods on them (they didn't live to tell and he refused to say a lot after being convicted in his attempt to manipulate in order to extend his death date).

It just seems reasonable that if a police officer wants to go around pulling people over, he should look his part, not like an ordinary civilian. If a LEO goes to someone's door, why would he not want to be dressed up if he wants them to take him seriously? I understand that often it doesn't happen. However, it's impossible to be 100% sure and you can be 100% dead.

Since a criminal impersonating a cop sounds more unfair and more likely to throw off even a smart person compared to if he were just to pretend to be a peddler or unfortunate soul in need, I worry about this area more. I don't worry so much about a violent criminal pretending to need help or asking what time it is, because I know that I will on high alert and outright refuse the stranger. With the cop impersonator, although less likely, I don't know how I'd react even if my intuition says that there's something very wrong. Since it seems like an unfair tactic even against those who've been taught about criminal warning signs, the thought troubles me more. Just like you're much much more likely to die from a car accident or heart disease than murder, people none the less go to THR because being murdered seems much more troubling to the mind because of the way that control is taken away from the victim. It doesn't mean that it's wrong to ask about self-defense against deadly force on THR. Likewise, is it a bad question to ask about cop impersonators?

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Another reason why I asked is I want to come across as respectful to cops and don't want to be on of those "pain in the butt" suspects you see on cops where they catch on camera the cop being really nice and polite while you feel like kicking the suspect in the rear end. If someone claims to be an undercover cop, I want to be respectful because he most likely is a cop, but at the same time want to be safe because some of the most notorious serial killers at some point in their criminal careers had fake police/FBI badges. Jeff White said that LEOs that he knows won't complain if you drive to a well lighted public place to be pulled over and no plainclothes officer at your door is going to complain if you call and verify his/her identity. Hopefully that's true in most places.

 

[AlaskaErik]

If the real police come to ask questions, don't they always come in twos?

The two officer rule is for 911 calls where the caller indicates there is some sort of assault or forced entry. But a detective following up on leads will normally be alone. There are too many crimes to solve and not enough LEOs to have the luxury of two man teams. I guess a lot of people think of Dragnet.

 

[nezumi]

I talked with a cop about this issue just recently. Obviously, different cops will have different takes on this, but the general rule of thumb is if you explain to the cop your concern (via the dispatcher or another method, and yes, driving to a public place within a mile or two is acceptable, as long as you make sure your cop realizes what you're up to, probably by slowing down and putting on the blinkers), the cop will wait. Obviously, if he has a warrant and a team and is banging down your door saying it's a drug bust, he probably won't wait until you're in hand cuffs, but for normal things like traffic stops, it's acceptable.

The thing that bugs me is recently when a cop visited my apartment, he knocked on the door, but refused to appear in the peep hole and refused to identify himself until the door was open. He was standing against the wall, reaching around to knock like I was going to shoot through my own door or something (which is understandable, considering the neighborhood I live in), but I'm sort of wondering how he expects me to trust it's a cop out there so I open the door in the first place. Granted, I didn't press him, and I suppose if I told him to show a badge he might of, but for some reason that encounter still urks me.

 

[Thin Black Line]

an unmarked car, one meant to prevent you from recognizing it as the police . . . uh-uh.

For over a decade our small town alternated between white and black sports
cars (one was a trans-am) for speed limit enforcement. There were no external
lights, decals, etc. I think only a few times did a second marked car have
to come out to help pull someone over. The officer in the unmarked car was
always in uniform. After a while everyone from the surrounding states would
eventually learn to look for the unmarked cars. It was eventually replaced
with a cardboard cut-out of a "marked car" along the road. This too helped
slow people down for a while.....hmmm....wonder if the sportscars blew the
budget and reduced us to the cardboard car?

 

[Aaryq]

This was happening when in Northern VA (DC Metro Area) about the time I met my wife. Some of this has been covered in this thread, but I'll tell you what she told me anyway. She said that you should slow down really slow, throw on your 4 ways and pull into a well lit area, preferably a shopping center or 711 or something. Dial 911 and tell them you don't know if it's a cop or not. They should be able to tell you if it's really a cop or not. If it's an area that it's not well lit, just keep driving.

 

[HankB]

In a vehicle, if you are being lit up and don't stop, eventually more units will approach to give chase or cut you off. It is unlikely that they will all be fakes

Agreed . . . once one or more marked cars appears on the scene carrying uniformed officers, I will comply, as at that point I can identify them as LEOs.

 

[Veprman]

This happened a few years ago in orlando. They showed his gear on the news. He had a non police issue pistol. This guy I belive was showing up at peoples front door. If I see a "cop" at my door that has the wrong gun on his hip he will probably have his criminal carreer end very quickly. As for being lit up Ill just drive to a place with a bunch of witnesses.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

In a vehicle, if you are being lit up and don't stop, eventually more units will approach to give chase or cut you off. It is unlikely that they will all be fakes

Well, that's what I'm afraid of. I don't want to make a nuisance of myself and have cop cars trying to blow out my tires and appear on the movie cops, but I want to be safe at the same time if the situation seems really fishy. I just want to be reasonable in whatever I do. I started this thread because I was looking for a solution that's better than "Do what you feel works, but realize that you could be in a lot of trouble!"

 

[jlbraun]

In Florida there was another nut who went and bought himself a full uniform, real badge and duty gun. He would go to the county dispatch yard and sign himself out a car and drive around on shift. He would pull people over but since he did not have a ticket book give them warnings instead.

 

[Jeff White]

The probability of the average THR member encountering a criminal posing as a police officer to perpetrate a crime is most likely just a little greater then the probability of getting hit in the head with a meteorite the next time you're outside. Are some of you guys wearing helmets everywhere?

If your gut tells you something isn't right, put on your four way flashers so the (most likely real) officer behind you knows that you know he's back there, then proceed to a well lighted public area and pull over.

There are charges like fleeing and eluding and obstructing that can be filed if you don't handle things just right. I wouldn't recommend judging if an officer is real by the weapon he's carrying. Many agencies have a list of approved weapons. Not everyone issues every officer the same one. Simply ask for credentials, get on the phone and verify. And another thing, it's probably not the smartest idea to display a weapon while you're verifying. That would be a good way to get a very close look at the floor in your entryway.

Jeff

 

[Chev.James]

Some years ago, there was a woman in New Orleans who had filed a sexual harassment complaint against a New Orleans cop. He responded by going to her home and shooting her. Yes, he killed her. Part of the evidence against him was the radio transmissions he made on a police frequency bragging about "taking her out."

The moral of this story is that even a real, bonafide cop may come to do you harm. In Atlanta recently, a narcotics squad broke into a 92-year-old woman's home. She thought it was a home invasion and fired one shot with her revolver. The cops fired over 30 times at her, and while she was on the floor with her life bleeding out of her, they handcuffed her. Not finding any drugs, they allegedly planted them. A drug informant stated that the cops tried to get him to lie for them, to say that he had bought drugs at the woman's home earlier. He refused. Three cops were indicted for murder. Two plea-bargained, and the third is protesting his innocence. This is not an anti-cop post--I am grateful for the police who put their lives on the line for us every day. The point of this post is that there are bad cops, also, and you need to be aware that you may one day run into one. The victims in New Orleans and Atlanta most likely did not have a chance to call 911. Normally, your best chances involve immediate cooperation--but this did not work in New Orleans, and the woman in Atlana may have been stressed into a heart attack even if she had not been shot. As for myself, I think unmarked cars should be used sparingly, and I think the ONLY time a no-knock search is justified is during a hostage situation.

 

[Jeff White]

That's it. This thread is done. This is not the legal and political forum and we won't entertain threads that there is a good possibility the police have come to hurt you.

Jeff