How to discern between invaders masquerading as police and dynamic entries?

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vtuck2

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Gentlemen,

Over in the legal section there was a thread entitled "Rise of the Resistance: Restoration of the Castle Doctrine" (or something close to that. The thread is now closed but can be seen here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=649413

I presume that the moderators closed the thread because it got very heated. I found the thread to be very troubling at two levels: The first of these (constitutional) concerns was obviously widely shared by many members, because it was widely discussed. I suspect that it was the vehemence of this discussion between regular citizens and one or more contributors who are LEOs) that caused the thread to be locked.

My SECOND level of concern however, was not addressed. Or if it was, I totally missed it.

Let's assume that you're a totally boring, placid (but armed and prudent) homeowner. You have no skeletons in your closet. You're asleep in your bed.

You're awakened by the sound of your door being kicked in. One or more armed "officers" come boiling through the door shouting "POLICE! HANDS UP!"

How do you react? There appear to be some number of well documented cases (even youtube clips) of "FBI" or "DEA" "agents" making forced entries. But they're not police. They are in fact criminals masquerading as such.

If you hesitate all is lost. If you open fire you possibly will die, or will kill an officer, and, if so, will be prosecuted in the unlikely event that you survive.

One of the VERY eye opening links published by a contributor to that thread is the following:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

So, what would YOU do? No matter what you do, it's the "luck of the draw" (pun intended).

V
 
Lawful dynamic entries are most always made by SWAT teams, and in that instance you will typically hear more than 4 voices identifying themselves. Rarely will you ever have a single police officer enter a residence, protocol most always dictates waiting to enter until backup arrives.

Rarely do you have 4 robbers involved in a home invasion.


To be honest though, if people come into my house announcing themselves as the police, I am going to have to trust that they are actually the police. In the neighborhood I live in, the most action cops get are traffic violations so I am not too worried about home invaders impersonating police officers.
 
I did not contribute to the closed thread. However I like many others am very much against no knock warrants. If a mistake is made and an innocent citizen is the victim of the police going to the wrong address everybody loses. And I can see no safe way to be sure that the people coming through the door are the good guys.
 
Every choice you make in life comes down to a "what happens if A is correct vs. what happens if B is correct, and how likely are each" question. Some, like the Army, call in Risk Management. You weigh the options and think about what the worst possible outcome will be for the decision as well has how likely that outcome will be.

Guys dressed as SWAT, calling out POLICE! coming through my door.

Possibility A: They are criminals who want to kill me.
-Option1: Shoot them. I could win and survive
-Option2: Don't shoot them, they attack me and I probably lose

Possiblity B: They are police officers acting, justified or not, on official action
-Option1: Shoot them. I lose. I get killed or survive and prosecuted for murder.
-Option2: Don't shoot them. Repair my door, be angry, but alive.

It seems that one on hand shooting at the "team" will help you survive, and on the other, it will cause even more problems, probably your death. Since the outcomes are essentially the same in each scenario, only reversed by your actions, the real question is...which scenario is more likely; police or criminals?


I would guess it's probably more than 99% more likely that it's police. How many SWAT entries happen in a year in the US? How many of them were criminals pretending to be police?
 
I don't see the difference, unless the police make their presence and legitimacy known ... you know, by knocking and presenting a warrant.

Kicking in a door is a dangerous job, I wouldn't recommend it, and some doors are harder to kick in than it looks like they would be, even in crummy apartment buildings you can sink in really long screws and beef up the mounting hardware, I've essentially done everything but replace the door/frame - let's just say that I'd get more notice than the neighbors that someone was trying to get in.
 
For one, I think that there are a lot more doors being kicked in in the US everyday that many people realize. I have seen estimates that DEA taskforces (DEA Agents with local, county and state officers) serve over 25 "no knock" warrants a day in the US. And that is just DEA. Add to that every other LEA and the potential, depending on where you live just keeps going up. I think if you feel it is a concern, then take measures to ensure that NO ONE is comming through your door un announced. Simple thinks like door bars slow entry teams down enough that bad guys escape. A steel security door, in a steel frame properly mounted with reinforced stud mounts on the proper hinges need more than a battering ram to get through. We are talking dynamic (id: explosive) entry at this point. That gives you enough time to look out the window. If you see half a dozen black suburbans and an APC with SWAT painted on it, then you know it is the real guys. Then you can decided how you want to proceed. I have worked with police for years while in EMS and have enormous respect for the tough job they do. I believe most of them are good, honest patriots. But, as in any group, there are some bad ones, and even the good ones can make a mistake, honest or not. That is why NO ONE is comming though my door(or windows for that matter) without me knowing first.
 
We are talking dynamic (id: explosive) entry at this point
Click to expand...

How many criminals are going to use a breaching charge for a home invasion?.....


And if someone is trying to get into a house, you are recommending that the homeowner go to a window and look out?
 
Quote:
"How many criminals are going to use a breaching charge for a home invasion?.....


And if someone is trying to get into a house, you are recommending that the homeowner go to a window and look out?"

I was troubled by that too. Not only would I be disinclined to do it if we had a window that opens on the porch, we don't have such a view. I did not understand that "dynamic entry" involved breaching explosives. I thought it was simply bashing the door in.

Our location is isolated and is just a few feet of a very busy rural highway. I can no longer count on both hands how many dicey encounters we've had - both day and night. That plus two burglaries while we were gone. Two in about 15 years so I guess that's a far better average than some places. It is a home invasion I worry about - not the authorities. What are the odds of either? I would like to believe "pretty low". However, although I cannot prove it, instinctively, I feel that a home invasion is a hugely bigger possibility.

V
 
A burglar or the police should stop and re-think their cunning plan when I announce my presence and that further entry attempts will be progressively dangerous.

Police will present their warrant, criminals will either make a run for it or find out I was serious.
 
Perhaps I have been misunderstood

How many criminals are going to use a breaching charge for a home invasion?.....


That was kind of the point...if the police, and few of them at that, are blowing my door in, it probably isn't a group of creative thugs.


As for the window, police probably won't shoot just anyone they see in a window unless you start shooting first; bad guys won't likely be looking at the second story window; those lace cutain liners that my wife loves are what snipers call "window veils" and let me see out without others seeing in; and I have the strongest rated tempered windows you can get...any tougher and they would be ballistically rated. So IF someone did shoot at me, there is very little chance a quick peek is sending me to an early grave.
 
We talk about odds versus stakes here a lot. This is one place where I think the odds mostly override the equation, though any reliable metric is going to be difficult to impossible to establish. It's pretty unlikely that home invaders are going to kick in your doors, and even less likely that legitimate LEOs will hit your house in a "wrong address" warrant service attempt.

The best way to avoid at least some of the "oops, wrong address" raid problem seems to me to have your address clearly and prominently marked at your mailbox/driveway entrance, at the front door and any other place it's appropriate to do so. Nothing wrong with having your house number and street address on display, right? Obviously that won't help if the warrant has your address on it by error, but it might help rule out the other kind of mistake.

The 'layers of security' thing can work in your favor here as well. We have wireless passive IR sensors on the road leading in to our house, on the driveway and around the house itself, for example. No vehicle and no pedestrian is getting close without being announced. And traffic here is at low enough levels that it's no trouble to glance out at every signal and see what's going on. Bedtime comes pretty early out here for working people, and any "after hours" traffic is going to get scrutinized. Almost always it's just a stray deer or two tripping the sensor.

We share the signals from some of these sensors with our neighbor who has a receiver for the same system we use, and they help us look after things on our road. Electric fences and locked gates are another barrier that's not at all out of place in our rural environment. And we have large dogs which are very territorial (as well as loud), and resent any vehicle or foot traffic around the house that isn't someone they know.

The best thing for us here in this particular county is that local culture absolutely rules out most forced entries by much of anyone under much of any circumstances. It just isn't done. People (including LEOs in marked cars) don't wander around very much out here in places where they have no business being, it really is a very old fashioned place in that regard, and the history of that attitude stretches back a long way. That unfortunately is something that seems pretty hard to come by in many places these days.
 
Let me offer a professional LE opinion, w/o giving legal advice.(Damn, this is a new one.)

Make sure that your house numbers are large, in plain view, and cannot be mistaken for ANY other numbers.

IE, "932 Pine Street" hasnt had the 9 spin upside down and turned your house into 632.

Trust me; this will eliminate about 99% of mistakes.
 
Let me offer a professional LE opinion, w/o giving legal advice.(Damn, this is a new one.)

Make sure that your house numbers are large, in plain view, and cannot be mistaken for ANY other numbers.

IE, "932 Pine Street" hasnt had the 9 spin upside down and turned your house into 632.

Trust me; this will eliminate about 99% of mistakes.
Click to expand...

Heck, that's just common courtesy too, for everyone from the UPS/DefEx man to pizza delivery guys (both jobs I have done). Use large numbers(936, not nine thirty six), have them in a prominent place, have the color of the numbers contrast with the background (no black numbers on dark brown paint), and have them lighted in the night time. Put them on your mailbox too if yours is by the curb, and even on the curb itself.

I can't tell you how many times I had to go searching for houses at night only to find an address that was 3 inch tall numbers hidden behind a overgrown shrub with no lights on the porch. I can't say what those people deserve without being un-High Road.

And turn your porch light on at night. It helps pizza drivers, it makes your house look inhabited which can be enough to dissuade some smash and grab burglars, and it makes your address visible to the authorities. With a low energy bulb, there's really no good reason not to have your porch light on.
 
IE, "932 Pine Street" hasnt had the 9 spin upside down and turned your house into 632.
Click to expand...

Unless the numeral was attached somehow right in the middle, its not possible for a 9 to flip upside down (making a 6) without it hanging conspicuously below the rest of the numerals.

Surely, LEO are intelligent enough to recognize that, yes?
 
How about a sign by the door that says, the dope dealers live two houses down the street. :)
 
Rarely do you have 4 robbers involved in a home invasion.
Click to expand...
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/crime/apx-AZHome-InvasionCochise-County_89042673-03122012
Please note the date.
I would actually think a BIG tip off would be working lightbars outside, hopefully. You can buy a lightbar through Galls, but most criminals wouldn't want one around,nor hook it up. Bubblegum machine light, yes, easy to hide, so I'd hope to see red/blues through the window.
Other than that, without a searchlight pointed at the door, hard to tell. Walk up and knock, ID, show warrant, and I'll let ya in. You want soda or coffee?
 
There are times to fight and times not to. If four or five guys in armor and armed with ARs come through your door as a surprise it probably does not make much of a difference for you if they are cops or not. If you fight you are going to die. Exercise some risk assessment and give it up because you are not winning that fight.
 
You won't have time to count or closely examine clothing if you're shooting the first idiot through the door.
Again, kicking in some doors is harder and more dangerous than others.
 
Possibility A: They are criminals who want to kill me.
-Option1: Shoot them. I could win and survive
-Option2: Don't shoot them, they attack me and I probably lose

Possiblity B: They are police officers acting, justified or not, on official action
-Option1: Shoot them. I lose. I get killed or survive and prosecuted for murder.
-Option2: Don't shoot them. Repair my door, be angry, but alive.
Click to expand...
Possibility C: They are police officers using their positions to engage in criminal behavior on the pretext of "enforcing the law".

Google "S.O.S." and "Jerome Finnegan". I hear that Playboy has an in depth interview with the aforementioned "gentleman", the ring leader... doing time in prison after years of similar crimes against the public. Strangely, nothing happened to the gang until they robbed another cop's home.
 
Well, if you haven't done anything recently, or anything too severe, then normally the Police like to knock first. Bashing in the door with a stack of tactically trained officers seldom happens without good cause. I wouldn't shoot anyway simply because the chances of killing a Police Officer in this situation instead of a masquerading crook are too high to make the risk acceptable. The Police will shoot you if you shoot at them, and they do not take at all kindly to losing their own.
 
Contact the local department and ask them what their procedures are. Around here it's "surround and call" for anything that doesn't have an immediate risk to life involved. So, if my door gets kicked in it's almost certainly not the police.

Maybe it's different elsewhere but my experience has been that the police are very interested in developing relationships with (law abiding) people within the communities that they patrol.
 
Home invasions

I have not heard of a home invasion that involved a door breaching that was not real police.

BUT a door bell or knock that was fake LEO - yes that is not uncommon.

If you are answering the door and they say "police,open up" they will be happy to show REAL I.D.

If there is any doubt,call the local agency as they will be notified of ALL entrys and arrests PRIOR to the other agency attempting to take action.

We had a scenario here a few decades back where an agency attempted to take a 'action' and the whole neighborhood called for the patrol division to respond.ALMOST came to a shootout until the other agency showed I.D. to the patrol on scene.

That is why all outside agencys will notify the locals.

So they will know if your door knockers are the real deal and they [ police ] will respond accordingly.

Hope this helps.

I am retired LEO btw.
 
I agree the problem is much more likely to be one or two guys saying they're police to get you to open the door. Police give of signs and signals, from the way they dress to the way they knock. A cop knock is usually a POUND POUND POUND with forceful but controlled gloved knuckle strikes. It's not unusual to hear squelching radios in the background. And the voice is liable to be clear and authoritative, but not panicked or uncertain. They do this for a living, after all.

Sometimes there are other hints, too. Creased pant legs and shined shoes will often mark a fed in plain clothes. They have a weird fixation on that. I remember a fellow like that making the rounds in Spenard some years back. EVERYONE knew he was a fed the moment they laid eyes on him, and sure enough he was. Conversely, someone wearing a mismatched uniform or having dirty hands could be a sign you aren't really dealing with a cop. Much of the trick is to know your locale and know what your cops look like, how they act and what they wear.

Basically, if the behavior seems off or your little voice is bugging you, back off from the door and call 911.
 
FMF Doc said:
How many criminals are going to use a breaching charge for a home invasion?.....
Click to expand...

Aren't the ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADER (artists formerly known as, "Mexican-'American's' :mad: ) drug cartels doing this VERY thing in AZ especially?

Granted, they ain't doin' it in PITTSBURGH... for the moment..., but La Raza, MS-13, and others are all OVER the place these days... :eek:
 
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