How to discern between invaders masquerading as police and dynamic entries?

[allaroundhunter]

Aren't the ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADER (artists formerly known as, "Mexican-'American's' ) drug cartels doing this VERY thing in AZ especially?

Granted, they ain't doin' it in PITTSBURGH... for the moment..., but La Raza, MS-13, and others are all OVER the place these days...

I live in Texas, and where I live is right next to a city with one of the largest estimated illegal immigrant populations......I have never even heard about this. You northerners are being fed a load of manure if that is what newspapers up there are saying.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Possibility A: They are criminals who want to kill me.
-Option1: Shoot them. I could win and survive
-Option2: Don't shoot them, they attack me and I probably lose

Possiblity B: They are police officers acting, justified or not, on official action
-Option1: Shoot them. I lose. I get killed or survive and prosecuted for murder.
-Option2: Don't shoot them. Repair my door, be angry, but alive.
Possibility C: They are police officers using their positions to engage in criminal behavior on the pretext of "enforcing the law".

Google "S.O.S." and "Jerome Finnegan". I hear that Playboy has an in depth interview with the aforementioned "gentleman", the ring leader... doing time in prison after years of similar crimes against the public. Strangely, nothing happened to the gang until they robbed another cop's home.

Ok. You still weigh the possibilities in terms of "which is more likely?". The answer doesn't change. There is still more than a 99% chance it's police officers at the wrong house, not trying to murder you. Since that's still the vastly more likely option, your best bet is to not shoot.



Deanimator: Are you trying to make this into a philosophical discussion about whether no knock warrants are just, how militarized police are, pointing out bad apples in police, etc OR are you just answering the OP's question about which would be the wisest course of action.

I've already laid out a logical answer to what the OP actually asked. You ask yourself which possibility, no matter how many there are, is more likely; and base your response off that. Since the number of court-authorized no knock warrants severely outnumbers the amount of criminals masquerading as police OR police acting criminally, one would logically base their response on that possibility. And that would mean not shooting.

If you want to go off on a tangent about bad apple police, feel free to start your own thread. The THR member who started this thread was actually asking a question. A question that has little, if anything, to do with Jermoe Finnegan.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Its happened in Phoenix. I'm pretty sure all of it was drugs and illegal immigrants often involving kidnapping. It generated an Amber alert at least once when they took a kid. If I remember correctly they were in full on SWAT gear including M4s and armor.

 

[mcdonl]

BUT a door bell or knock that was fake LEO - yes that is not uncommon.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/standish-family-is-held-at-gunpoint_2012-03-17.html

It sure happens, and like most of the other evils in my part of the woods the precense of "Oxy's" is making things like this a more frequent incident.

Regarding house numbers... PLEASE, on behalf of your local EMS crew fix your darned numbers.

Regarding how to respond. Well, obviously everyones situation is different... being in public service I work with my local police on an almost daily basis and they all know my house, so for me... I am going to assume foul play until proven otherwise...

But, all of that being said I use firearms in self defense of myself and my family in order to prolong my time on earth with them. So I would need to consider my odds and the likely outcome of me versus multiple enemies. I am good, but I am not THAT good

 

[Deanimator]

If you want to go off on a tangent about bad apple police, feel free to start your own thread. The THR member who started this thread was actually asking a question. A question that has little, if anything, to do with Jermoe Finnegan.

I raised a REAL possibility that wasn't mentioned.

Given that similar things have happened in Philadelphia, it's not something that can be cavalierly discounted.

 

[rwilson37643]

For me, this question is simple. If anyone comes through my door, my wife goes to the kids room and calls 911 on either the land line or the cell and I take a position at the top of the stairs, beside the override switches for all downstairs lights, with my Mossberg. Between my position and my wife's phone call if it is police we should find out before anyone gets shot.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I've had cops come to my house to serve a warrant
seems she was picked up for something, was let go, and then additional information came up, and my address was what she gave or was closest to what she gave.

They approached by foot, and didn't even get the chance to knock.
That they were on foot was actually a plus, as the department has a policy about where cruisers can be parked due to difficult driving conditions and closed (single way in/out) subdivisions, in a non emergency call. That there were 3 of them (someone had to stay with the cars and watch for runners) in proper uniform with radio chatter...

 

[Averageman]

I would reccomend security camera's for this reason.
I have noticed that Good guys use Equal Opportunity hiring processes, bad folks will usually all be of the same ethnic group.
Not to sound like a jerk but until the bad guys go ahead and use equal hiring practises I can assure you that if there are 5 guys dressed as Cops and you live in Wisconson, they probobly wont all be of one racial minority.

 

[bobby68]

Every choice you make in life comes down to a "what happens if A is correct vs. what happens if B is correct, and how likely are each" question. Some, like the Army, call in Risk Management. You weigh the options and think about what the worst possible outcome will be for the decision as well has how likely that outcome will be.

Guys dressed as SWAT, calling out POLICE! coming through my door.

Possibility A: They are criminals who want to kill me.
-Option1: Shoot them. I could win and survive
-Option2: Don't shoot them, they attack me and I probably lose

Possiblity B: They are police officers acting, justified or not, on official action
-Option1: Shoot them. I lose. I get killed or survive and prosecuted for murder.
-Option2: Don't shoot them. Repair my door, be angry, but alive.

It seems that one on hand shooting at the "team" will help you survive, and on the other, it will cause even more problems, probably your death. Since the outcomes are essentially the same in each scenario, only reversed by your actions, the real question is...which scenario is more likely; police or criminals?


I would guess it's probably more than 99% more likely that it's police. How many SWAT entries happen in a year in the US? How many of them were criminals pretending to be police?

i suspect you would need to adjust those numbers to:

how many SWAT entries INTO AN INNOCENT PERSON'S home vs. number of PRETENDERS robbing people such as yourself. I'd say those numbers might be a bit closer.


P.S. depending upon where you live, shots fired might encourage badguys to immediately leave in fear that someone might now be calling the police. One case on youtube was of Fake FBI guys trying to pry into a house-first the door then the window. The homeowner fired a shot through the window and the Badguys went running. Probably a good argument for cameras and sensors outside the home to stop the process before the invaders are face to face with armed homeowner.

 

[allaroundhunter]

depending upon where you live, shots fired might encourage badguys to immediately leave in fear that someone might now be calling the police.

It would also put the SWAT entry team in a position where they would feel more threatened and they can and will return fire. Whereas bad guys will typically leave, the SWAT team is trained to engage when threatened and they will do just that, with deadly effects.

 

[Zundfolge]

We talk about odds versus stakes here a lot. This is one place where I think the odds mostly override the equation, though any reliable metric is going to be difficult to impossible to establish. It's pretty unlikely that home invaders are going to kick in your doors, and even less likely that legitimate LEOs will hit your house in a "wrong address" warrant service attempt.

This is pretty much how I look at it. Based on my lifestyle and where I live the chances of an honest to God SWAT team kicking in my door (on purpose or by accident) is virtually nil.

So I will err on the side of it being criminals and treat them accordingly.

But I'm also not going to waste a lot of worry on the possibility that this will ever happen. I put it right up there with the possibility of a zombie apocalypse.

 

[Doghandler]

I wonder. Would a phone message with a picture of the warrant count as sufficient announcement for the skeptical constitutionalists? At least you could read the alleged warrant and make a judgement as to whether the cops or robbers, whoever it might be, had the correct address or not.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

This is pretty much how I look at it. Based on my lifestyle and where I live the chances of an honest to God SWAT team kicking in my door (on purpose or by accident) is virtually nil.

So I will err on the side of it being criminals and treat them accordingly.

If you look at how many times SWAT teams are used vs. how many criminals pose as SWAT teams, it would demonstrate that those guys yelling "POLICE" are probably more than 99% chance really police.

 

[JustinJ]

If a barking dog is on the other side of the door i assume SWAT will proceed with a "no-knock" entry and shoot the animal? Can't say i would be very good host after such an occurence.

 

[Neverwinter]

If you look at how many times SWAT teams are used vs. how many criminals pose as SWAT teams, it would demonstrate that those guys yelling "POLICE" are probably more than 99% chance really police.

That's comparing the wrong number. You need to compare how many times SWAT teams enter the wrong place, not their total usage.
Maybe if one were a criminal, they would be better served with your comparison.

Sent using Tapatalk 2

 

[Wapato]

The incidence of criminals using this tactic seems to be on the rise, though this is ancedotal and based on reports I've read.

The odds of police showing up at the "wrong address" is probably very low. However there seems to be a higher incidence of police being at the right address but with bad information as a result of a bad informant.

Sort of on that note, if you plan to defend your home with a firearm, your kid brining home some pot isn't just a youthful indescretion, it could get you all killed as the odds of a no knock warrant being served for your address skyrocket. It also increases the odds his "friends" might decide to break into your home to steal the pot or other valuables.

We've had some threads like this before and I've started some on other forums. The end message seems to be that under current practices you really can't tell until at the earliest you've gotten a good look at them, which is probably already too late if they're there to shoot you. The only effective defense seems to be some form of turning your house or bedroom into a bunker such that the police are delayed enough to talk it out.

Though if you're lucky and the police entry team is good they might lob a flashbang through your bedroom window and be standing on your back before you can arm yourself, which is a good thing in this case.

 

[Shoobee]

Horror stories like this tempt me to keep my Mossberg loaded too.

Not just my 45ACP.