How to handle "hotel security" knocking on door?

[koja48]

I wouldn't have said squat, would have called the POLICE, then laid-back in a strategic and defendable position with my .45 or the most lethal & defensive item available . . . had my preferential choice been unavailable due to legal formality (alright, I'll be honest . . . with my .45 . . . ), and waited until assistance arrived (no offense, but I'll refrain from relying on unarmed, under-paid, hotel security personnel no matter how dedicated or well-intentioned they may be, as "assistance" . . . ). Bust thru my door & I'll do my best to ensure that you never bust thru another. I'm rather hung-up on "procedure & protocol" and am least intimidated by threats initiated by enterprising scum.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Folks, please remember where you are.

Remember why we all are here.

It isn't to argue, snipe or nitpick.

If you notice your post missing from this thread... that's a clue.

lpl/nc

 

[ilbob]

Call the front desk and tell them someone is demanding entrance to your room claiming to be a security guard but refuses to provide ID. if they know nothing about it ask them to call the cops.

It probably was a hotel guard, but you never know. I occasionally worked hotel security years ago and we would NEVER, EVER have been sent up to investigate this kind of thing without a call being made to the room by the front desk first.

<added> The few times I did go to see about a noise complaint I would knock and tell them there had been a noise complaint and ask if they had heard any unusual noises. The usual response of "no" was followed by my apology for disturbing them and asking them to please report any future such noises to the front desk.

 

[fireflyfather]

ilbob, that's some great verbal judo.

Yeah, don't rely on hotel security for anything. When we had to call security at our resort, it was kind of a joke. Most are minimum wage wannabes who may someday graduate to bouncing at a two-bit bar. They have about as much legal training as my two year old daughter. Having said that, one of the guards who I used to work with was a SEAL moonlighting. You never know.

Off topic, but that dude used to (occasionally) bike from Coronado (amphib base) to work (25 miles), ride a bike at the resort for his entire shift, then bike home. Took a couple of female employees down to the Coronado obstacle course one weekend. Was funny as hell to see the pictures. I think he was mostly using the job as an excuse to pick up girls at the resort bar. heh.

 

[ilbob]

ilbob, that's some great verbal judo.

You might not believe it, but once in a while I can show some level of tact. I think when I am being paid to be tactful, it is easier for me. The hotel would have been annoyed with me if I aggravated a guest unnecessarily.

 

[halfbreed808]

You should have called the front desk first and verified that he was with the hotel.
The meth problem here in Hawaii is quite high, and crimes against tourist are one of their favorite ploys. The schemes these addicts come up with can really be clever. Always better to err on the side of caution then to become another statistic.

 

[Pax Jordana]

The guy on security will be a jerk sometimes. When he goes out, HE knows he's the good guy, and if there's a good guy outside, your being cautious is only slowing him down from getting the complaint taken care of and him back to his desk.

The bad guy will also be a jerk sometimes, because the good guy will be a jerk sometimes.

Personally, I'd let the guy get his backup. If he doesn't have a key, and he's not gonna show you any ID, call the front desk and see if security's been sent up. Anyway, if he can call in backup, you know backup's gonna have a key - then if THEY're bad guys, you've obviously ticked off the whole hotel

 

[rrruuunnn]

someone has probably already mentioned this.

if he was security, wouldn't he have a master key?


this just happend tonight:
my internet has been down for a few days. so i had to use my clearwire express card. but i don't get coverage from my house. so i drove down the street and parked in the Holiday Inn parking lot. i thought it would be safer with cameras and security at 2am. the security guard informed me that i was criminal trespassing. i told him that he needed to give me a chance to leave first. and if i come back then he could put criminal trespass. since i have experience in criminal trespass running restaurants. i was offended implying that i was a criminal. there is also a sign that says public beach on the parking lot.

 

[Keegan]

I think I only worked at one hotel where I was given a master key, and it definitely wasn't an upscale establishment. Even then, we were instructed to do nothing more than call the police and watch the scene unfold from a safe distance if we observed some type of crime; definitely no entering rooms without explicit invitation from the guest. Even if the security guard had a master key, I don't believe he could have legally entered an occupied room unless he happened to be a moonlighting law enforcement officer who had probable cause. Somebody might correct me on that, as my boss was definitely not a lawyer.

 

[fireflyfather]

The guy on security will be a jerk sometimes. When he goes out, HE knows he's the good guy, and if there's a good guy outside, your being cautious is only slowing him down from getting the complaint taken care of and him back to his desk.

The bad guy will also be a jerk sometimes, because the good guy will be a jerk sometimes.

Personally, I'd let the guy get his backup. If he doesn't have a key, and he's not gonna show you any ID, call the front desk and see if security's been sent up. Anyway, if he can call in backup, you know backup's gonna have a key - then if THEY're bad guys, you've obviously ticked off the whole hotel

As keegan has mentioned, security having a key does NOT entitle them to enter the room in other than dire emergencies (fire in the building, screaming rape, etc). Any security guard attempting to enter my hotel room without my permission will receive the exact same response as any other unlawful intruder: A demand that they leave because I am calling the police, while actually calling police. If they actually enter the room, rather than stand at a door that they illegally opened, then you're dealing with a VERY different situation, and one that you WANT 911 to be listening in on. If for no other reason than when the cops show up, you have some audio evidence to help back up your story when you ask them to arrest the trespassers.

 

[The Tourist]

"Everyone" is a jerk unless he is a sworn officer. Just because he 'thinks' there's a party in your room you do not give up any rights and privileges.

Let him call all of the back-up he deems necessary. One lawyer and a newspaper article can more than handle that group.

 

[Treo]

I think it's pretty much been covered, but to hit the high points.

I'm not sure I'd ask for I.D., I have no idea what a Hawiian security license looks like.

I'd certainly contact the front desk and verify who's out side my door. I also see no harm in telling the person that's what you're doing.

Definetely would have made a detailed complaint to management, asking for some type of reduction in my bill.

As for the people that go absolutey butt-monkey over security guards I think there must be some underlying bitterness there. Like possibly they were publically humiliated by a security guard at some point, maybe they tried to get rough W/ and ended up getting thrown into a fountian by the guard. And they now take every oppurtunity to vent in the safe & anonymous forum of the internet. Maybe they even tell an alternate story in which the guard ends up swimming.

 

[The Tourist]

publically humiliated by a security guard at some point

Nope, never happened, not once.

What I do have is thirty years experience working with CFOs, reorganization teams and lawyers.

The use of your rights is exactly like the use of your muscles. Failure to use them effectively causes atrophy.

As I've stated, a security staff has no power at all.

 

[fireflyfather]

As for the people that go absolutey butt-monkey over security guards I think there must be some underlying bitterness there. Like possibly they were publically humiliated by a security guard at some point, maybe they tried to get rough W/ and ended up getting thrown into a fountian by the guard. And they now take every oppurtunity to vent in the safe & anonymous forum of the internet. Maybe they even tell an alternate story in which the guard ends up swimming.

Wow! And you accuse others of "projecting"?

Actually, during college I spent about 3 years working in a resort hotel in the front end/purchasing departments, and 6 months working weekend mall security, and nothing I saw in either job, nor in any situation as a customer in similar places of business has given me any reason to assume that security guards in general (armored cars drivers notwithstanding) are anything more than minimum wage types with a fake plastic badge. That's not to say that many, maybe even most, guards aren't decent, hardworking people, like most minimum wage workers. However, lots of members of the public seem to think that they have some special legal rights/powers beyond regular employees. They do not. In fact, a surprisingly large number of those guards (who should know better), also think that they have special status. *shrug*. I've never been personally hassled, but I've been around enough to know that a guy claiming to be hotel security demanding to have the door opened/enter the room is either a fake (and will someday get what he deserves), or eventually going to get a beating and a trip to the police station if he enters a private person's room on a regular basis. Not all hotel residents are as high road as most folks around here.

 

[The Tourist]

to know that a guy claiming to be hotel security demanding to have the door opened/enter the room is either a fake (and will someday get what he deserves), or eventually going to get a beating and a trip to the police station

I actually believe it's more than that. They are not "posers" per se, but they actually have themselves convinced they are part of law enforcement.

If you read the stats posted (CRS 16-3-201), and knowing the security company itself called the meeting, it is stressed that their employees not interfere with the real police.

The first reason is obvious. The security company doesn't want to get hit obstructing justice.

The other reason is that since a guard is not a sworn officer, he is not part of the chain of evidence. His handling of anything damages the investigation, and could open the door to fruit-of-the-poison-tree.

And courts are getting tougher. It is now ruled that every citizen has an expectation of a zone of personal space. Violate that space and you not only risk intentional infliction suits, but also false inprisonment and assault.

And street-wise guys know their rights. Even a petty purse snatcher knows he has Miranda rights and a phone call. Anybody I ever rode with knows a guard is a shoe salesman with a phony badge. I have one of their patches.

You call the dance and the piper must be paid. Sooner or later their little house of cards falls and they realize they have been kidding themselves. I'd rather get hit with a tire iron than Cognitive Dissonance.

 

[fireflyfather]

I actually believe it's more than that. They are not "posers" per se, but they actually have themselves convinced they are part of law enforcement.

Yes, this is exactly the problem. When I got my guard card, the job description was "observe and report". WAY too many cowboys out there thought that meant that they had all kinds of law enforcement powers. All that uniform entitles you to to do is ask people to leave the property, or.....you guessed it: CALL THE POLICE. This is becoming more of a problem with the kind of police state mentality that seems to have arisen post-911. I mean, check out the TSA's new uniforms for chrissake. A lot of people (not just guards!) seem to take it on themselves to "enforce the law". Just check out those threads on the DC subway guards telling reporters at a subway press conference held in the actual subway that it's illegal to take pictures in the subway. Subject of the press conference? "Despite the incident a few days ago where a guard told a member of the public it was illegal to take pictures on the subway, it's perfectly legal, so go ahead". People are inventing all sorts of new crimes and trying to enforce them/get others to enforce them, because "I think that's illegal, or at least it should be".

 

[The Tourist]

One of my problems (in disliking authority in general) is that a mall ninja's behavior makes me contemptuous of the breed, even to the point of obeying their more reasonable suggestions.

They have strutted, usurped and masqueraded for so long on such petty matters of their own egos that I'm going to make them go through all of the hoops.

They are going to have to show me every badge, every piece of ID, they will have to call their boss, the real police, my attorney, a good plastic surgeon and secure a note from their mother before I take one unwanted step. And that's if I'm in a good mood.

If this minion of the law is going to proffer his power at my expense in front of thousands of shoppers, then he's he's going to eat the embarrassment of his act.

And all he had to do was step aside and let me pass.

 

[tepin]

i wouldnt have opened the door or talked to him through the door.

 

[Treo]

Gonna Have Fun Watching This Get Twisted.

As a contract security guard the scope of my authority is very sharply defined, (Please note that I took this job to help pay my way through community college to become an M.A. & that I have ZERO interest in being a cop of anykind)

As a security guard I act as the property owner's agent W/in the limits they set.

If I catch someone trying to enter the sight illegally I ask them to leave. If they don't I am authorized to detain them, using the minimum force necessary to effect the detain ment. The last time it happened on our site the "BGs" were "detained" by offering them coffe & donuts.

If I catch someone on site stealing anything again, I detain (at my discretion & 9.50$ an hour isn't enough pay to get in a fight) and contact the police, since I AM NOT the police I do not have to ( and am actually specifically forbidden to) inform anyone of their Miranda rights that's the job of the police.

If I see a fire I report it & inform the control room of the power plant.

If I see someone in need of first aid I am allowed to respond to my level of traing. & Call 911.

My duties generally include checking doors and window on buildings & company vehicles,

Escorting visitors to the person they're visiting so they don't get lost.

And 100% I.D. checks of city employees entering the site.

For those who have served in the military the above should sound suspicuously like onpost courtesy patrol, and like CP I spend about half my shift W/ nothing really to do I spend that time doing homework for school.

Pretty hard core huh?

 

[The Tourist]

tepin, the problem with most of these guys is that they would use a pass card, enter, and you would still have to deal with them.

The problem is not the scenario of the OP (or any other), the problem is defining to a mall ninja just what exactly his duty is, under penalty of law, and then subject that to proper delegation and accountability.

Giving a ninja a badge without proper delegation is how the problems starts, and then not holding them accountable (by employment agreements or law) is how it continues.

Whether it's in your suite, in the the suite's hallway, the parking garage, the mall, the mall fountain, anywhere, your actions must adhere to the laws of your jurisdiction.

But what's reported? It seems like in far too many instances citizens report abuses by a shoe salesman with a badge. We ought to start squeaking more about it--in court.

 

[Brian Dale]

...the problem is defining to a mall ninja just what exactly his duty is, under penalty of law, and then subject that to proper delegation and accountability.

Giving a ninja a badge without proper delegation is how the problems starts...

Editing the first question that I posted in this space: so, a security employee may do anything the owner has the right to do, if he has the owner's permission to act in his stead?

Problems arise when employees try to do things which either:
1) have not been assigned as part of the employee's job by the owner, or
2) the owner has no right to do in the first place.

Am I reading this correctly?

 

[fireflyfather]

Editing the first question that I posted in this space: so, a security employee may do anything the owner has the right to do, if he has the owner's permission to act in his stead?

Problems arise when employees try to do things which either:
1) have not been assigned as part of the employee's job by the owner, or
2) the owner has no right to do in the first place.

Provided that the security personnel have permission to act *IN THAT EXACT MANNER* in his stead. It's not a power of attorney, where the guard could sell the property, etc. They also can't exceed the authority of the property owner.

For example, a landlord cannot enter a rental apartment except under emergency circumstances without warning or the consent of the tenant. Doesn't matter if the lease term is 12 months or 12 hours, legally it's the same thing.

 

[Jeff White]

I think we are straying a little too far from how to deal with "hotel security" knocking on your door.