without all the gun writer hype about small fast bullets vs.big slow bullets,how would a "rookie gun person" know whats best for SD ? if you look at the "paper figures" small fast has the foot lb.of energy edge over the big slow bullets. common sense would seem to say,a big hole in the bad guy is better than a small hole.there is enough "expert opinions" out there to fill a book case.it's not like Mr/Ms rookie can test the old trial and error method.He/She are serious,they going to train and practice.they going to know how put the bullets on target.but,where do they get the info to buy the best carry weapon ? I have my ideas,along with about a dozen" perfect" CCW weapons.how about the "rookies" ? thanks jwr
how would a new gal/guy know??
- Thread starter jwr_747
- Start date
- Status
The Bushmaster
Member
Tell ya what...I'll shoot a dried pea at you from a pea shooter. Then I'll just lob a bowling ball at you and let you decide...In the real world I carry a 9mm X 19 in the summer [so I can hide it] and a .357 magnum in the winter [cause I can hide it]...If I were of a larger proportioned person I would carry my .45 ACP Colt...
jwr_747
I'm kind of confused as to what exactly you're looking for in an answer. The obvious answer is by the same means I imagine you acquired your ideas, reading all the supposedly skewed opinions and filter them with common sense and comparison with what others are saying......Hey! Why not join a forum!!!
I'm kind of confused as to what exactly you're looking for in an answer. The obvious answer is by the same means I imagine you acquired your ideas, reading all the supposedly skewed opinions and filter them with common sense and comparison with what others are saying......Hey! Why not join a forum!!!
I'm a rookie on this forum, but have been shooting and around guns for years. I think the whole debate on pistol rounds is about the same as hunting rounds.
I think that if you go with any of the more common rounds you will be ok. 380, 9mm, 40, 45, 357, 38. Any of these will put down a bad guy.
I see a lot of deer hunters hunting whitetail with, 300WSM, 300Mag, and so on. There are situations where the bigger rounds have their merits, but shot placement is more important.
A well placed 22lr is as effective as a 9mm at close ranges, and no body armor.
I'd rather have a 380 or 9mm that is a good consistent shooter than just lobbing lead in the air with a 45, but it also works the other way, I'd rather have a good consistent shooting 45, than a high capacity 9mm lobbing lead in the air.
Many others have said it before me, just pick what you like then practice and get familiar with the gun.
my $.02
Dave
I think that if you go with any of the more common rounds you will be ok. 380, 9mm, 40, 45, 357, 38. Any of these will put down a bad guy.
I see a lot of deer hunters hunting whitetail with, 300WSM, 300Mag, and so on. There are situations where the bigger rounds have their merits, but shot placement is more important.
A well placed 22lr is as effective as a 9mm at close ranges, and no body armor.
I'd rather have a 380 or 9mm that is a good consistent shooter than just lobbing lead in the air with a 45, but it also works the other way, I'd rather have a good consistent shooting 45, than a high capacity 9mm lobbing lead in the air.
Many others have said it before me, just pick what you like then practice and get familiar with the gun.
my $.02
Dave
Forget all the hype and garbage and just get out and shoot with a gun that fits your hand that you are comfortable with.
I've got more guns than I'll ever need from little pipsqueeks to big boomers and any one of them will do the job if I do my part. The bottom line is that "If you can hit it, you can hurt it".
I've got more guns than I'll ever need from little pipsqueeks to big boomers and any one of them will do the job if I do my part. The bottom line is that "If you can hit it, you can hurt it".
The caliber debates are completely subjective UNLESS all compared shots strike exactly the same place, under the same conditions.
If you can hit your target every time, choose your caliber, (my preference is bigger than .380) and you'll be fine.
If you can't always hit your target, it doesn't matter what caliber you use.
A hit with a .22, beats a miss with a .45 every time.
If you can hit your target every time, choose your caliber, (my preference is bigger than .380) and you'll be fine.
If you can't always hit your target, it doesn't matter what caliber you use.
A hit with a .22, beats a miss with a .45 every time.
Sistema1927
Member
How does a new driver know what car to drive?
How does a young person know which bank to use?
How does a worker know which tools to use?
How does a cook know which ingredients to use?
(They read, talk with friends and family, do research, learn, etc.)
Why would guns be any different? Guns should be unremarkable, but instead have some kind of "cosmic aura" that makes us think that they are more than the tools that they really are.
How does a young person know which bank to use?
How does a worker know which tools to use?
How does a cook know which ingredients to use?
(They read, talk with friends and family, do research, learn, etc.)
Why would guns be any different? Guns should be unremarkable, but instead have some kind of "cosmic aura" that makes us think that they are more than the tools that they really are.
Remember these rules:
-All, repeat ALL handguns and handgun rounds suck at stopping people. The .45 is not a stopper. The .357 is not a stopper. The 9mm is not a stopper. The .44Mag is not a stopper.
-People have died from a single hit with a .22 and shrugged off a full magazine from a .45. Shot placement is everything with handguns.
Therefore, get a pistol that fits you and you can get multiple shots off quickly and accurately with.
-All, repeat ALL handguns and handgun rounds suck at stopping people. The .45 is not a stopper. The .357 is not a stopper. The 9mm is not a stopper. The .44Mag is not a stopper.
-People have died from a single hit with a .22 and shrugged off a full magazine from a .45. Shot placement is everything with handguns.
Therefore, get a pistol that fits you and you can get multiple shots off quickly and accurately with.
Would offer that successful self defense is a result of tactics, not calibers. Your real goal is safety withOUT gunfire.
Of course, local opinions may vary.
Of course, local opinions may vary.
If you're on the Internet, you always need to have your bulls**t filter in place. Always.
Buy something. Learn to use it. Learn enough to make your own judgment. Don't be afraid to make a mistake buying your first gun -- there's always somebody out there that will buy it if you don't want it anymore.
Last edited:
Get on www.warriortalk.com and start browsing the "Terminal Ballistics" forum.
There is a *ton* of misinformation about this stuff. That forum has the best info I've been able to find.
If you want a short answer: handguns are wimpy! Terms like "one shot stops" and "foot pounds of energy" are marketing BS. Ignore them.
Shoot the goblin 'til it stops or falls down without moving. If you're going to be liberal, be so with your ammo. Most calibers, 38 Special / 9mm or greater, will generally do the job if you place the bullets properly.
Attend several defensive shooting courses. Try to get varying points of view. If someone tells you that "only shooting using the sights" is the best thing since sliced bread, go try point shooting. If they tell you one thing, try the opposite. Eventually, you'll develop a broad firearms skill set and will be able to develop the philosophy and techniques that work best for you. Oh, and your BS filter will be really, really good.
There is a *ton* of misinformation about this stuff. That forum has the best info I've been able to find.
If you want a short answer: handguns are wimpy! Terms like "one shot stops" and "foot pounds of energy" are marketing BS. Ignore them.
Shoot the goblin 'til it stops or falls down without moving. If you're going to be liberal, be so with your ammo. Most calibers, 38 Special / 9mm or greater, will generally do the job if you place the bullets properly.
Attend several defensive shooting courses. Try to get varying points of view. If someone tells you that "only shooting using the sights" is the best thing since sliced bread, go try point shooting. If they tell you one thing, try the opposite. Eventually, you'll develop a broad firearms skill set and will be able to develop the philosophy and techniques that work best for you. Oh, and your BS filter will be really, really good.
There is no way for young or old to "Know" without experience either personal or that of others .
The caliber wars will always be around .
As far as a good defensive handgun round two things make the difference 1 is of course shot placement 2 is the performance of the bullet which stems from it's design .
A bullet even if placed in a vital area "lungs , heart or major artery" no matter what expands to wont instantaneously halt a living creature man or beast .
There is only 1 100% way to "STOP" any animal and that is with a brain or spinal shot that completely shuts them down .
Remember the famous FBI Miami Shoot out in the 80's? The 9mm bullets did exactly what they were designed for "rapid expansion" and were very well placed yet the bad guy lived long enough to keep killing with a Ruger Mini 14 .
Had those same bullets come from say a 38 super with a higher velocity they would have penetrated farther and perhaps enough to reach the spine .
It's impossable to know what to carry as an attacker isn't going to make an appointment and give you his/her physical description and clothing they will be wearing .
Personally I want a bullet that will expand yet penetrate fairly deeply , I use the famous 125 gr 357 JHP's pushed at over 1,400 fps and 200 gr Hornady JHP's in 45 acp around 1,000 fps .
The caliber wars will always be around .
As far as a good defensive handgun round two things make the difference 1 is of course shot placement 2 is the performance of the bullet which stems from it's design .
A bullet even if placed in a vital area "lungs , heart or major artery" no matter what expands to wont instantaneously halt a living creature man or beast .
There is only 1 100% way to "STOP" any animal and that is with a brain or spinal shot that completely shuts them down .
Remember the famous FBI Miami Shoot out in the 80's? The 9mm bullets did exactly what they were designed for "rapid expansion" and were very well placed yet the bad guy lived long enough to keep killing with a Ruger Mini 14 .
Had those same bullets come from say a 38 super with a higher velocity they would have penetrated farther and perhaps enough to reach the spine .
It's impossable to know what to carry as an attacker isn't going to make an appointment and give you his/her physical description and clothing they will be wearing .
Personally I want a bullet that will expand yet penetrate fairly deeply , I use the famous 125 gr 357 JHP's pushed at over 1,400 fps and 200 gr Hornady JHP's in 45 acp around 1,000 fps .
Hokkmike
Member
Caliber debates have been the fodder for countless posts and magazine articles. They are fun to discuss. I think any caliber from the .380 to the .44 mag is a great defensive round. Why not go with the biggest one that is comfortable, can be concealed, and you can handle in speed, grip, and accuracy? So, the next job is to pick the gun you like.
In a gunfight between the .380 and .45ACP, likely, the guy that puts his shot in the target area first wins. In the long run size and capacity might make the difference.
In a gunfight between the .380 and .45ACP, likely, the guy that puts his shot in the target area first wins. In the long run size and capacity might make the difference.
Knowing 'bout all the bullet hype requires constant study, in these ever
changing times. New developements are always forthcoming from all of
the different major manufactuer's; and the only way too stay on top of
it is to study all the aspects of said bullets daily. Gun rags and writers
receive compensation to boast a particular brand, bullet, or both. Know
what you are dealing with; and often times it takes trial, error, and lots
of $$$$~!
changing times. New developements are always forthcoming from all of
the different major manufactuer's; and the only way too stay on top of
it is to study all the aspects of said bullets daily. Gun rags and writers
receive compensation to boast a particular brand, bullet, or both. Know
what you are dealing with; and often times it takes trial, error, and lots
of $$$$~!
As an example, though 9mm is a great round, it is known to punch through without mushrooming the way bullets of a certain type might perform in other calibers. Some of us want the bullet to spread and stop before hitting an innocent bystander if behind or ricochet. So, you can study calibers, bullets, cylinder or mag. capacity and more; you can decide what might be important to you in a SD situation.
My advice is to find yourself a good firearms instructor who has a "relationship" with a range that has handguns for rent. Try out different calibers and types until you find something that "fits" you. Every one of us has our own personal opinion, and none of us is YOU. We're not reticent when it comes to letting you know what is "best", but that "best" is OURS not YOURS.
When my wife decided she was ready to become a "shooter" and work toward getting her concealed carry license, I "knew" what firearm and caliber was right for her, (arrogant, huh?). Since I want to stay married, I didn't say anything but instead signed us both up for a NRA basic handgun course. (At great personal effort, I kept my big mouth shut throughout the course.) We fired a revolver (.38 Special) and a semi-auto (9mm). She now has a Beretta Cougar in 9mm, has taken additional instruction from a different instructor, is comfortable with her choice, and is practicing regularly. (My choice for her was a .38 Special revolver, but it wasn't HER choice.)
There IS a lot of hype and "information" out there. IMHO most of it is either personal opinion (THR) or pre-paid bovine excrement (gun writers). Go find out what is best for you. In my wife's case, best for her is 15 rounds of 9mm, and I sure can't argue that 6 rounds of .38 Special is better.
When my wife decided she was ready to become a "shooter" and work toward getting her concealed carry license, I "knew" what firearm and caliber was right for her, (arrogant, huh?). Since I want to stay married, I didn't say anything but instead signed us both up for a NRA basic handgun course. (At great personal effort, I kept my big mouth shut throughout the course.) We fired a revolver (.38 Special) and a semi-auto (9mm). She now has a Beretta Cougar in 9mm, has taken additional instruction from a different instructor, is comfortable with her choice, and is practicing regularly. (My choice for her was a .38 Special revolver, but it wasn't HER choice.)
There IS a lot of hype and "information" out there. IMHO most of it is either personal opinion (THR) or pre-paid bovine excrement (gun writers). Go find out what is best for you. In my wife's case, best for her is 15 rounds of 9mm, and I sure can't argue that 6 rounds of .38 Special is better.
Last edited:
"Carefully noted records over a number of years... provides us with so many contradictions that we feel that anything approaching dogmatism would be most unwise."
-William Fairbairn, 'Shooting to Live', 1942. A guy with a lot of experience in shootings, and he still couldn't conclusively say if the .45 ACP beat out the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartrige (very high speed, very lightweight). The larger caliber may be superior overall, but it doesn't seem clearly superior in all cases. There are abysmal failures in stopping BGs with .45s as well as with 9mms.
Versus gelatin alone, I believe the larger calibers are superior. Versus muscle, tissue, and bone, things seem to be up in the air to some extent.
As for best CCW, I won't try and say. I like my 4" barrel .357 Magnum. I also adore my .22 Beretta. I carry both.
-William Fairbairn, 'Shooting to Live', 1942. A guy with a lot of experience in shootings, and he still couldn't conclusively say if the .45 ACP beat out the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartrige (very high speed, very lightweight). The larger caliber may be superior overall, but it doesn't seem clearly superior in all cases. There are abysmal failures in stopping BGs with .45s as well as with 9mms.
Versus gelatin alone, I believe the larger calibers are superior. Versus muscle, tissue, and bone, things seem to be up in the air to some extent.
As for best CCW, I won't try and say. I like my 4" barrel .357 Magnum. I also adore my .22 Beretta. I carry both.
.380 or .38 Special are pretty much minimum calibers for self defense. A pocket .22 is still better than harsh language, but every study shows that it has low odds to stop an attacker.
Keep those minimum calibers in mind and see how many different guns they can go shoot. Whatever they can shoot accurately and present quickly is what they should get. There is no scientific method to it, it's whatever fits your hand and works for you.
When they're ready to make a decision, remember that whatever it is, they need to practice with it to maintain proficiency. .45s are nice, but not if you can't afford the ammunition. (It's just an example.) They also have to shoot it every so often, and those scandium Smith and Wesson revolvers and Kahr PM-40s are lovely to carry, but they are not fun to shoot. If they plan to get a second gun for practice, than get an ultra light for carry and shoot it occasionally along with the range gun.
Unfortunately, there is no single method to get the answer to your question. The best way to do it is to find a range that has a lot of different guns to rent and try them.
Keep those minimum calibers in mind and see how many different guns they can go shoot. Whatever they can shoot accurately and present quickly is what they should get. There is no scientific method to it, it's whatever fits your hand and works for you.
When they're ready to make a decision, remember that whatever it is, they need to practice with it to maintain proficiency. .45s are nice, but not if you can't afford the ammunition. (It's just an example.) They also have to shoot it every so often, and those scandium Smith and Wesson revolvers and Kahr PM-40s are lovely to carry, but they are not fun to shoot. If they plan to get a second gun for practice, than get an ultra light for carry and shoot it occasionally along with the range gun.
Unfortunately, there is no single method to get the answer to your question. The best way to do it is to find a range that has a lot of different guns to rent and try them.
That seems to be an easily misinterpreted statement.
.45 will most likely bring an attacker down in pain,
a CZ52 is a very rippin' handgun, and the cartridge is not wimpy by any means. (I know the original use for the round was in smg's but that's beside the point.)
.50 Action Express is so very unwimpy that they converted the cartridge to shoot out of an AR15 platform!
Yes, they are all wimpy compared to the 30-06, or .50bmg
but you can't carry those fairly easily concealed. (except the -06 target gun) Although carrying a .50 ae revolver or D-Eagle would be a challenge too.
From what I learned..
...
Either a 4" or 5" 1911 45cal..
Or any size 9mm
Without any doubts.. for one's first handgun.
Both are "forgiving" in recoil, and both are great guns to learn from.. IMHO
Ls
...
Either a 4" or 5" 1911 45cal..
Or any size 9mm
Without any doubts.. for one's first handgun.
Both are "forgiving" in recoil, and both are great guns to learn from.. IMHO
Ls
Everyone starts out as a rookie in this life (believe it or not, even I was born naked and illiterate.)
And the problem is not limited to knowledge of guns -- cars, homes, and many other things are like that. You have to study the subject to make an informed purchase.
But forums like this are a great help -- you can come and ask your questions and find someone who really knows the answers.
And the problem is not limited to knowledge of guns -- cars, homes, and many other things are like that. You have to study the subject to make an informed purchase.
But forums like this are a great help -- you can come and ask your questions and find someone who really knows the answers.
Massad Ayoob and others have studied actual gunfight results and come up with good information on which ammo works best at incapacitating BGs.
Gelatin and theory don't account for things like clothing, which can plug a hollowpoint and make it behave like a FMJ.
The old .38 Spl. RNL round had a poor reputation as a stopper. Veins and arteries are like thin rubber tubes. Round nose bullets push them aside without severing them. Full wadcutters don't. The pure lead 158 grain SWC HP round that came out about 35 years ago turned the .38 Special into a good stopper. Hollowpoints are great IF they work as advertised (and pure lead ones almost always do.) If a JHP doesn't expand, you're back to FMJ performance.
I'm old school. I generally prefer a big bore revolver with near-wadcutter shaped bullets, pure lead with a hollow point. But I'm willing to try new things if they make sense to me. MagSafe ammo comes to mind, as do my own experiments with full wadcutter nylon bullets at over 3000 FPS. (I originally did this for aerial shooting, then discovered massive wounding at close range on slaughterhouse animals.)
Carry what you shoot well, and use ammo that maximizes the caliber's effectiveness.
JR
Gelatin and theory don't account for things like clothing, which can plug a hollowpoint and make it behave like a FMJ.
The old .38 Spl. RNL round had a poor reputation as a stopper. Veins and arteries are like thin rubber tubes. Round nose bullets push them aside without severing them. Full wadcutters don't. The pure lead 158 grain SWC HP round that came out about 35 years ago turned the .38 Special into a good stopper. Hollowpoints are great IF they work as advertised (and pure lead ones almost always do.) If a JHP doesn't expand, you're back to FMJ performance.
I'm old school. I generally prefer a big bore revolver with near-wadcutter shaped bullets, pure lead with a hollow point. But I'm willing to try new things if they make sense to me. MagSafe ammo comes to mind, as do my own experiments with full wadcutter nylon bullets at over 3000 FPS. (I originally did this for aerial shooting, then discovered massive wounding at close range on slaughterhouse animals.)
Carry what you shoot well, and use ammo that maximizes the caliber's effectiveness.
JR
I totally disagree and you're missing the point. Always choose a rifle (in a rifle caliber) over a handgun if you're in the position to do so. We use pistols for convenience and the trade off is effectiveness. I'd carry a gun chambered in 30-06 if they could fit it into my SIG P220...but it NEVER will fit. So we're stuck with the likes of 9mm, 45 ACP, and 357 Magnum. John Ross' 50 S&W Uberwhompin' 5 shot revolver is neat, but I find it a bit unwieldy. But, concealed carry generally requires a smaller handgun.
Other posters have said, time and again, to use the largest caliber you can control. Perhaps you have severe arthritis in your wrists...and 32 auto is all you can stand. By all means--use it. Unlike all the passive "victims in waiting", at least you're carrying a gun!
There are about five people in this country who can intelligently talk about terminal ballistics and I doubt anyone here is one of them. I'm certainly not. "Tradition" has a strong hold on the gun world. "Big-n-slow" bullets, "small and fast", "JHPs do..." this or that, "full metal jacket ball ammo is terrible because...", "never use reloaded ammo for defense", and so on and on and on.
This is what I've been told and read by those "in the know". The ballistics of most common handgun rounds are terrible compared to rifle round ballistics. One certainly cannot rely upon ".45 will most likely bring an attacker down in pain" -- total BS (Don't even get me started. The point is killing, not maiming). It could take one to the earlobe or six or more through the chest--there are too many factors involved to even provide a partial analysis here. Many people have died from bullets deemed "inadequate" by "experts"--some were even "Dead Right There". Again, there are so many factors involved in every case (with so many interactions) that a complete and meaningful discussion on a forum is not really possible.
With handguns, keep your expectations low, be liberal with your ammo, and ignore all the hype. Focus on skill in shooting, tactics, situational awareness, emergency medicine, and additional fighting skills like explosive movement, knife and empty hand. You should become as physically fit as possible. If all you can do is shoot, you're missing a huge part of self-defense.
With all that, what do I use for defense? For the most part, I place my trust in skill and capacity. The 9 mm cartridge is perfectly adequate for my purposes, especially with a quality jacketed hollow point round (I like Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabres). I prefer 45 ACP for many other applications due to ease of reloading (as well as "forgiveness" of errors), accuracy, and versatility.
At the same time, though, I'm training my body through Team Ruthless, improving my hand to hand skills, and learning to use the knife. Force on force shows me tactics and I learn something new every time I participate. It's really a life long road of training, but most folks don't treat it as such, which is unfortunate.
Well, there is something between a handgun and a rifle, a pistol-caliber carbine. Thoughts?
-terry
-terry
- Status
