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How would you handle this one?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Balrog, Nov 30, 2019.

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  1. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Yea that was my thought as well. A load of wood really isn't easy to steal and I am not really sure what these guys would have been thinking. But since what he has threatened is a felony, I am not sure about giving them the chance to make the next move though.
     
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  2. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    If he's smart he says "Sorry guys, can't help you. You need to step."

    Why wasn't the gun on his person?

    Why did he allow them to approach that close?
     
  3. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    And someone would be explaining that decision to the police.

    That's a pretty damned smart assessment
     
  4. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    I think because he was driving and had been working cutting down the trees, he didnt have the gun on his person.

    How would he have stopped them from approaching?

    How would have dealt with it?
     
  5. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    What would he have explained? That 2 suspicious men approached threatening him with a felony, and he drew his gun to protect himself from what he perceived as an imminent threat?

    The other thing that might be relevant is that the guy who was pumping the gas is not a big fellow. He is about 5'4 and weights about 150 or 160 would be my guess.
     
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  6. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    If the gun isn't on your person you can be separated from it. Bad Ju Ju

    You can't stop them from approaching. What you can do is decide how close you're going to allow them to approach before you take action. You can also make it clear that you're not going to be an easy mark?

    I assume you were asking how I would have dealt with it, The first thing I would have done was made it crystal clear that I was aware of their approach. I would have asked them to stop and asked them their business before the got into my space. If things escalated to "What if we take it?" I would take out my OC and suggest that might not be the best Idea they've had all day. Then we'd go from there.
     
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  7. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Ignore as much as possible and try to drive away. Hand on firearm if can be done discreetly enough. If they make a move to fulfill their threat, shoot. Bravado responses such as "I would like to see you try" only escalate issues.
     
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  8. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Fortunately in this case, he was not separated from his gun, but carrying on your person is always better. But we do know that some don't always do that. In his case, he didn't.

    How close would you have let them approach? What words would use to let them know they are too close? They got out of a vehicle very nearby so it sounds like all the distances involved were close the whole time.

    He didn't have any OC spray on hand. If you didnt have OC spray, what would you do in such a situation?
     
  9. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    As Kleanbore will be along to tell us shortly his perception of whether or not it was an imminent threat won't be the deciding factor. I'm pretty sure Kleanbore will also remind us that they didn't threaten your friend with physical harm and that he was a long way from being able to prove that he was in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury. If all they're doing is Blah, blah it's not time for deadly force.
     
  10. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    To clarify state law here, you can use threat of force, force, and deadly force if someone is committing a felony involving your "habitation", which is further defined as your home, your work, and your transportation.

    The person involved didnt want to use any force really, certainly not wanting to use deadly force, but did want to get home alive and preferably without being robbed on the way.
     
  11. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    I deal with people like this every night at work and it's different every time.

    I can't tell you how close I would have let them approach. I can tell you I'd have engaged them the second it became apparent I was the target. "Something I can help you with?" "Hey buddy, can I get you to stop right there? Is there something you need?" A lot of times if you make it clear that you know they're up to some ****
    They'll go look elsewhere.

    Was the truck between your friend and the street rats? I wouldn't have tried to spray them down with gas because you have to be pretty close and that's liable to end poorly for everyone. If I didn't have OC I'd try to talk them out of it until I ran out of time then I'd fight. One thing that I've found that works real well is calling the police. They generally talk smack right up till they hear "You have reached the Colorado Springs police and Fire dispatch."
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  12. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Is a trailer full of wood your transportation?
     
  13. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Easy reach can be like trying to out run a tornado.
     
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  14. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Ok so to wind this up, when the street thugs said, "what if we just take it", the owner of the wood produced the Glock and told them it would be a bad idea. They mumbled something, backed away, and moved on.

    He then called the police, who didn't say anything about how he handled it, but they never found the thugs.
     
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  15. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Remember this, kids:

    What is legal and what you can get away with are not necessarily the same thing.
     
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  16. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    I wonder how it would have played out if they had called the police (because criminals actually do things like that) and said they asked for some wood and he threw down on them.

    If you're going to employ deadly force you had better be prepared to justify your actions.

    Deadly force should always be the last option
     
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  17. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Don't know. The police didn't seem to have a negative reaction when he described the incident. It happened in a rural area of a conservative state where criminals don't seem to be respected as much as they are in more liberal places.
     
  18. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Like they say in the real estate business; location, location, location........There are a lot of places where this approach would be completely acceptable:

    But there are a lot of other places where the owner of the cedar could have been charged, especially if the "street thugs" had called 911 first. Most gas stations have video on the pumps these days to help identify drivers who leave without paying. But in most cases there is no audio. So there might be a nice video record of the woodworker "threatening" two people who he was talking with. You really have to know what's acceptable where you are at and you have to be able to read the situation and the people you are interacting with. A lot of carjackings happen at the gas pump. Unless there was more said or they made a threatening move, i.e. closed on the woodworker I'm not sure drawing was justified. There just isn't enough information to really know.
     
  19. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    How remote is the gas station? How many peopl around? Are these guys obviously armed with any type of weapons (knives pocket clipped, etc)? Are they wearing enough clothes that they could easily be concealing weapons? Where are they both standing in relation to him and his vehicle? Are they both really interested in the wood, or just one of them? Are they both focused on him? Do they have one vehicle, or two? Or is their vehicle not present? Is anyone watching this happen? Are there cameras at the gas station? Is it day or night?

    One extreme is that it's day time with lots of people around in a highly urbanized area and cameras in the lot. One guy isn't really that interested in what's happening, the other guy is bluffing, and your buddy can just shrug it off and roll out.

    Other extreme is that it's night time, no one else is around, the gas station is unattended with no cameras, and it's a rural area with almost no traffic. He's on his own with two guys who have a vehicle or two ready to pursue. They're positioned tactically, may be carrying weapons, and are both interested (perhaps determined) to get something out of this confrontation. He needs to act aggressively and right now because he's got no one to rely on but himself.

    So yeah, I need more information. Otherwise I'm just imagining a scenario, and the next poster is imagining it a completely different way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  20. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Gas station was a few miles from town and a mile or so from a neighborhood.

    It happened during daytime.

    The men were not obviously armed.

    They were wearing enough clothes that they could have had a weapon concealed.

    They were near the tailgate of the truck. Owner of wood was next to truck pumping gas.

    Neither one was looking at the wood, they were looking at the wood owner.

    The wood owner doesn't know if they had a vehicle.

    Wood owner doesn't know if anyone witnessed the incident.

    Wood owner doesn't know if there were cameras, or if they were working.
     
  21. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    I would have put my keys in my hand first (in my pocket). Then hung the pump up and slid into the vehicle, putting the key into the ignition as I did so, and then driven away. Trying to move quickly and smoothly enough that they didn't have time to react and get to either door of the truck.

    Sometimes acting tough can get people to back down. And sometimes it has the exact opposite effect. Pulling a weapon in a situation where those guys have yet to commit a crime (they asked what if we just take it?, which on paper is question not a threat) is a really bad idea legally speaking. And anything between being passive and an outright gun-in-the-face threat may only make things worse.

    Whilst using "verbal judo" could work, engaging in more conversation might just give them the confidence they needed to push a bit more and escalate the situation further. So I think the best thing is to not give it the chance to go that way. Just leave.

    That's my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  22. Milt1

    Milt1 Member

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    If that was me, I wouldn't let them get any closer before I acted. I would have left the nozzle in the filler opening and grabbed my pistol but would not have shown it unless the BG's actions warranted it. They would know that I had something in my hand and I would just continued to face them. Just the thought that I might have a handgun would probably have turned them around.
     
  23. Anchorite

    Anchorite Member

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    I want all of you on my next jury.
     
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  24. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    Given all the details...

    Option 1: point the fuel nozzle at them and tell them to wander off.

    Option 2: dial 911 and shout that I’m being robbed and need immediate police assistance because I’m in fear for my life. Shout out my location, their descriptions, etc.

    Option 3: Escalate it with the worst thing I can think to say, hope they attack, and roll the dice on winning a fistfight because it’s just that kind of day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  25. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    I don't understand the point of option 1 listed above. Is pointing the fuel nozzle a threat?
     
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