How would you like to spend $500 to buy your gun back?

[Ehtereon11B]

http://www.guns.com/club-security-confiscates-patrons-gun-extort-10974.html

Long story short. Guy goes into a club in PA, gets in a fight, CCW taken, escorted out. Bouncers charge him $500 to get it back. From my standpoint I am seeing 2 bouncers extorting someone AND 2 bouncers illegally selling a firearm without an FFL. I am not too familiar with PA gun laws and how they relate to nightclubs/bars so feel free to chime in if you live there. Thoughts?

Also mods: Feel free to move this thread if I put it in the wrong spot. I am still new here.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Extortion? Maybe, but I will not say yes or no definitively.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[smalls]

The fact that he probably shouldn't have been in the club to begin with aside, I would have reported it stolen.

But, somethin smells weird about the patron to me, though. I've never met anyone serious enough about their safety to carry a gun who likes hanging out at clubs. They're a tactical nightmare, and full of Billy Badasses looking to fight.

 

[k_dawg]

While the dude may not have been smart, sounds like "security" engaged in criminal extortion, a felony involving a firearm.

I would have immediately called the police and report that your firearm was physically stolen, itself an act of crime as well.

The only legal avenue for security would be to claim they were in legal fear of their lives, and then have shown good faith by also immediately reporting it to the police.

 

[Arp32]

I don't see where the firearm was involved in the original incident, which makes a difference.

From the article, it sounds like he paid the $500 then filed a complaint with the police. I would have skipped to step #2 on the spot.

To look at this another way, what if a business had confiscated your car keys (assume no drinking or reckless driving, for the sake of argument) and then asks for $500 to have them back. I'd call the police on the spot. The $500 isn't a parking fine, it's extortion.

Back to the original set of circumstances, if the firearm had been involved in the altercation that set this off, the bouncers might have justifiably (if stupidly) disarmed the man, but at that point if they did anything other than turn over the weapon to police I think they would have some legal problems.

 

[MachIVshooter]

While the dude may not have been smart, sounds like "security" engaged in criminal extortion, a felony involving a firearm.

I would have immediately called the police and report that your firearm was physically stolen, itself an act of crime as well.

This.

Even if the fellow had done $500 worth of damage to the club during the altercation, it's not within the bouncers' scope to confiscate his property and demand informal restitution before returning the property. If property damage was done, they needed to call the police and file charges.

I could maybe see them telling him he had to leave and to come back for his firearm in the morning, but they cannot charge him for it.

 

[Birch Knoll]

In wouldn't have paid $500 to get my own gun back. I would have asked for it nicely, and when they refused, I would have taken out my cell phone, take photos of the bouncers, and call the police to report the theft of the gun. I bet the price would have dropped to $0 in 2.3 seconds.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Is it legal to carry into clubs/bars in PA? I'm pretty sure that it is illegal where I reside, but I'm not familiar with PA laws.

 

[Sam1911]

It is PERFECTLY legal to carry in a club or bar in PA. (And whether you were drinking or not does not change the legality of that.)

It is also ILLEGAL in PA to do a transfer of a handgun without going through an FFL. (Not that that strictly matters here, as this is in no way a legal sale. More of a theft and extortion.)

This should be a fun one by the time the lawyers get through with it.

 

[Tom488]

perfectly legal

 

[Certaindeaf]

The fact that he probably shouldn't have been in the club to begin with aside, I would have reported it stolen.

But, somethin smells weird about the patron to me, though. I've never met anyone serious enough about their safety to carry a gun who likes hanging out at clubs. They're a tactical nightmare, and full of Billy Badasses looking to fight.

So he deserved it? Church ain't seven days a week last I heard. Maybe he was dressed all sexy like?

 

[Owen Sparks]

I used to work as a bouncer and I could not confiscate a customer’s legal property, at least not permanently. I did take away a buck knife that a guy had in a belt pouch once but I returned it to him once I got him outside and he calmed down. The knife was never drawn and had nothing to do with the fairly minor scuffle that he was involved in. This sounds like the same sort of thing. IF the customer had a legal right to possess his handgun in the bar and IF he did not start the altercation he needs to use the threat of a lawsuit in order to "extort" his money back from the owner and maybe an extra $500 for his time and trouble. An official letter from a lawyer threatening a big suit might be enough.

 

[smalls]

So he deserved it?

Not saying that at all. He had a legal right to be armed there. Just saying, smart people who usually carry tend to avoid places that stupid stuff happens frequently. Clubs tend to draw a more wild crowd than your normal bars. At least, in my experience. I haven't been to a club in like 3 years, but almost any time my friends and I would go, there would be a at least one fight.

 

[General Geoff]

It is PERFECTLY legal to carry in a club or bar in PA. (And whether you were drinking or not does not change the legality of that.)

It is also ILLEGAL in PA to do a transfer of a handgun without going through an FFL. (Not that that strictly matters here, as this is in no way a legal sale. More of a theft and extortion.)

This should be a fun one by the time the lawyers get through with it.

This also sounds like one of the rare occasions where the state police pistol purchaser database would come to the aid of the pistol owner. Call the police, get them on-scene, and tell them to run the serial number of the gun that was illegally confiscated from you. It comes back as having been purchased by you, establishing that they did in fact steal it and commited not only theft, but violated state law by not having an FFL or sheriff transfer the pistol (and recording it in the state police's not-a-registry database)

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

I'm thinking the guy was drunk or there was a reason the guy did not call the police immediately.

Here in South beach bouncers will confiscate "fake" Ids all the time. If it is legit you go outside and get a cop and get it back. If it is fake your buddy buys it back. Yes it is illegal, but it's the way it works. Also, The bouncer is likely an off duty cop, so he is not getting arrested in any event.

 

[j1]

it is legal to sell long guns without a license in Pa. It is not legal to sell handguns without an FFL.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Deleted.... Reading wrong and giving bad advice. My apologies

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, it is legal to sell handguns in a private sale without an FFL in PA.

NO! It is NOT lawful to sell a handgun without an FFL's involvement in PA. I mentioned this in Post 9.

 

[gfanikf]

It is also ILLEGAL in PA to do a transfer of a handgun without going through an FFL. (Not that that strictly matters here, as this is in no way a legal sale. More of a theft and extortion.)

With the exception of C&R holders doing FTF (and the gun being C&R eligible of course)?

 

[Sam1911]

That is my understanding, yes.

 

[gfanikf]

That is my understanding, yes.

That was my understanding too. You had me scared for a second!

 

[Ehtereon11B]

I am not sure what it says on PA CCW but on most permits (such as AL) it reads
"This permit is not valid if the holder is under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs." But since any article I see on this incident does not include if he was intoxicated it is a moot point.

My wife was a bartender in New Orleans. She says that bars are legally allowed to confiscate a weapon if and only if they feel their life or lives of patrons are threatened by the presence of a firearm. However the firearm must be returned (free of charge in this case) when the patron leaves if they have calmed down. If not the police are called for them to take hold of the firearm and patron.

 

[Sam1911]

I am not sure what it says on PA CCW

Nothing to that effect. Just, "Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms" and then all the identifying info.
Having had alcohol, or actually being intoxicated, is not by itself a disqualifyer of your ability to carry. And, regardless, an employee of an establishment is not one to enforce a law like that, the police are. If such needed to be done for someone's safety, the appropriate thing to do would be to notify the police immediately, give them the gun, and press charges as the disarmed person surely must have been doing something unlawful to justify a taking of property.

For what it's worth, Utah's does not have any qualifying statements, either.

 

[gfanikf]

Nothing to that effect. Just, "Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms" and then all the identifying info.

For what it's worth, Utah's does not have any qualifying statements, either.

Right, mine just has the Bucks Countys Sheriff Office Logo, Name, Address, and if found please return. It also has the Sheriff's name and in quotes "Duke" for his nickname. It's on all the vehicles too.

 

[HankB]

It's a safe bet we don't have the whole story; the part we've read about sounds fishy to me.

I don't frequent bars when I'm carrying (illegal in TX anyway), I'm not a drunk, and I do my best to avoid situations that would involve a bouncer . . . I'm much more likely to leave on my own if trouble is brewing before being asked to leave. And if I know a place has a reputation for being a rough or rowdy joint . . . you won't find me there.

As far as I'm concerned, the only good fight is the one you avoid.

BUT . . . I would not give up my sidearm to anyone other than a sworn LEO who'd properly identified himself to me; anything else is robbery, preparation for which is one of the reasons I carry the sidearm.