How would you sneek up on this 9mm load

[1SOW]

I recently loaded a test batch of 15, 9mm, Win Brass, Win 124gr FMJ, Win 231 4.3gr, OAL 1.164. The longer length feeds better in my CZ.
I'm using the LEE Auto-Disk Powder Measure, Disk #40 and it weighs at 4.3 as advertised.

Load data listed this load At a shorter 1.09ish OAL & 1090fps.
At 1.164 mine chronod at 990fps as a 10 rd average Temp was about 70 degs.

With this OAL I want to get close to 1050fps to make a year round reliable 125 power factor. The next Lee auto-disk hole jumps (from this 4.3gr) to 4.6gr - hole #43.

I'm new to reloading with no experience. What kind of jump in speed would be reasonable to expect with a .3 gr increase. Is this too big of a correction to try???


I appreciate your help.

 

[Sunray]

If you want accurate powder charges, lose the disk and weigh each charge.
1088 fps is given, by Hodgdon, as the max load velocity for Win 231 with a 125 grain FMJ.
I'd change powders. Titegroup starts at 1069 fps with 4.1 grains of powder. Up to 1136fps with 4.4 grains. Same as the starting load for 231. Save you a bit of money too. A pound of powder will go a bit farther.
Mind you, loading a 'test batch' is not how to work up a load.
Do this and use a max OAL of 1.169".
Beginning with the starting load given in your manual, load 5 rounds only. Go up by half a grain of powder, loading 5 of each, keeping them separate until you get to the max load.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 10 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a rest.
Change targets between strings of 5 and allow time for the barrel to cool.
When you find the best group, sight in.

 

[RidgwayCO]

For these types of "small increment" powder changes, I'd use the basic formula of " 990/4.3 = X/4.6 " where X equals the new velocity (in this case about 1059 fps). This should be close, and as long as your load data allows 4.6gr of Win 231, you should be good to try it.

Caution! Don't try this algebraic technique if you are making large changes in the amounts of powder, as some powders don't exhibit linear progression in the pressures (and therefore the velocities) they produce. Always check published data to ensure you're within safe limits.

Also, I've found the Lee disks to be quite consistent when throwing powder. Just make sure you've allowed the powder to settle in the reservoir. After all, there's little chance of a fixed cavity changing while reloading. And please don't trust the Lee charts when determining how much powder a cavity is actually throwing. ALWAYS weigh the powder from a representative throw after you've given the powder a chance to settle in the reservoir.

Actually, I've found I LIKE the fixed cavities because they limit the number of options for any one powder. Trying every tenth grain increment with my Redding BR-3 powder measure was wasteful and ultimately self-defeating (at least for reloading pistol cartridges).

 

[Walkalong]

I used to have the same problem with my little Hornady pistol measure that used brass bushings. I would get an extra bushing and ream it out
"custom" to get in between standard bushings that had a big jump between them.

I finally bought a Redding 10X and it is great. I can increase by .1 grain easily. Eventually, you will get tired of that setup and upgrade to something similar.

It is very hard to guess FPS increase with increases. 4.6 Grs is plenty safe. Just load up 10 and go chrono them.

Trying every tenth grain increment with my Redding BR-3 powder measure was wasteful and ultimately self-defeating (at least for reloading pistol cartridges).

I understand that. I don't start at the bottom and work up all the way in .1 increments, but when I get close to what I want I really like to be able to adjust by .1 grain at a time.

My Clays loads in .38 Spl with 125, 140, and 158 Gr bullets all work very well at .1 under what I settled on, but they work great at that .1 grain more.

 

[zxcvbob]

4.6 grains of 231 should be just fine. But 4.3 grains of Bullseye will get you nicely over 1100fps at the same or lower pressure.

 

[rfwobbly]

If you want accurate powder charges, lose the disk and weigh each charge.

Exactly. This powder by scoop or dipper is a very large pile of stinky cow poop. While it's fine for general plinking, it's not good enough for your intensions. You need to be charging by weight, not volume, my friend. And you need a powder dispensing system that imparts powder load after powder load within very fine limits. The scoop or dipper varies too much becasue you cannot control the powder settling load to load. You can prove this to yourself by simply weighing 10 successive scoops on a sensitive scale.

Titegroup starts at 1069 fps with 4.1 grains of powder. Up to 1136fps with 4.4 grains. Beginning with the starting load given in your manual..... Go up by half a grain of powder....

If you work up by half grain increments, then 4.1 plus .5 equals 4.6gr which is too large of a jump in 9mm. Especially since the second half grain jump puts you at 5.1 which is well over the max load !! Surely our friend meant something else. Let's be careful.

I'd suggest you'd want to increase by 1/10th gr increments. Ie 4.1 to 4.2 to 4.3gr. There probably won't be a huge difference in 4.1 to 4.2, but by the time you get around the middle of the range, 4.5 to 4.6, the "Wow" factor will set in.

Save you a bit of money too.

This is arguable since you're going to get ~1500 rounds per pound using either powder. And secondly, since you've already purchased the 231. Use what you already have. Next time you make a powder purchase you may do well to price the TiteGroup.

Hope this helps!

 

[Walkalong]

I never weight charges for anything. I check my measure with my scale to set up what weight I want to throw and then load them up. I have plenty of loads that will shoot through one hole that way. Develop a good technique and your measure will take care of you.

That said. I am not against weighing every charge, I just don't believe it makes a measurable difference at less than 300 yards. Maybe for the folks that shoot 600 to 1000 yards it matters. I hope they chime in here.

For pistol loads at 100 Yards and in. No way am I going to bother to weigh every charge. Oh, and saving a dollar per 1000 or so rounds on a powder choice is not a good reason to pick a powder for me, unless it is at least tied for first place in load development.

(I have never weighed a charge for my bench gun, not even to check what it is. )(I am not advocating this method)

 

[rfwobbly]

I never weigh charges for anything. I check my measure with my scale to set up what weight I want to throw and then load them up. I have plenty of loads that will shoot through one hole that way. Develop a good technique and your measure will take care of you.

Exactly.

I did NOT mean to infer that each load needs to be weighed. What I was trying, not so successfully, to say was that he'll need a higher quality powder dispensing system.

Almost ALL powder dispensing systems work on displacement volume. Without getting into brand warfare, we all know that some brands of dispensers are inherently more accurate than others. We all know that some brands are better at handling certain types of powders (ball vs. flake). We also know that some brands of scales are more accurate too.

Generally speaking, dispensers and scales do this by eliminating more of the human element. That is, by helping the human refine their technique.

From the way I read 1SOW's question, it sounds as if he's probing an area that will need him to dispense powder within a finer, more accurate range by using a dispensing system with less load-to-load variation. And he may need a scale that will tell him when he gets there.

Follow?

 

[homeyclaus]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data at currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I think the main complaint with the lee disc system is that it lacks some in-between sizes, causing complaints that you can't get that 0.1 grain increase here or there.

I have found it to be accurate and consistent.

Going by volume to weight data is always going to get you light charge. That's called insurance. I call it a "starting point," which is what I think it should be for most people, and then work up to what you need it to do.

There are some engineering challenges to making a micrometer measure for really small charges accurate and affordable enough, and a disc system is a logical answer there.

I load titegroup at max with a 124 gr precision delta FMJ, and it works great in an all-metal, heavy pistol. Lighter pistols will abuse you a bit more. I find in either the 4.4 or 4.1 grain loading in 9 that it's sooty. Nothing cakes up, but there is a dusting of black everywhere inside the gun. Win231 does this much less.

 

[Walkalong]

I think the main complaint with the lee disc system is that it lacks some in-between sizes, causing complaints that you can't get that 0.1 grain increase here or there

Yep, and the exact reason to upgrade to a different measure sooner or later.

He'll think "Dang, I should have done this sooner", if he chooses later.

 

[Steve C]

Hogdgon lists 4.8grs as maximum for the 125gr Sierra fmj bullet. You should be fine going to the next disc at 4.6grs but measure it on a scale to make sure that's what its showing. A 4.6gr load should get you close to your desired velocity. If it doesn't then change powders to something slower burning like Universal, Unique, Power Pistol or AA5.

FWIW Lee makes an adjustable charge bar for the Auto Disc powder measure, cost is around $10

 

[RustyFN]

If you want accurate powder charges, lose the disk and weigh each charge.

Exactly. This powder by scoop or dipper is a very large pile of stinky cow poop. While it's fine for general plinking, it's not good enough for your intensions. You need to be charging by weight, not volume, my friend. And you need a powder dispensing system that imparts powder load after powder load within very fine limits.

While I agree that the pro auto disk doesn't have fine adjustment I don't think that has anything to do with being accurate. From other post I have read most people have the same experience as I do. My pro auto disk measure is very accurate. I use Titegroup, Bullseye, HS-6, BL(C)2, W748 and H335 powders and all of them throw within .1 grain of where the measure is set. I have sat down for a few hours and loaded hundreds of 9mm with Titegroup with the measure set to throw 4.2 grains and every one that gets double checked weighs 4.2 grains. Just my experience.
Rusty

 

[homeyclaus]

Right on the money, RustyFN.

Actually, even Varget meters well, much to my surprise, through the double disc setup. I actually think that once you're in double-disc range, you're golden, since then you can get just about every .1cc combination. It's the single disc thing that you'd wish had a few more sizes in between.

I have other measures, but the disc thing is pretty convenient once it's dialed in, and as long as you have the powder hopper more than 1/3rd full.

Then again, most Lee stuff is good once dialed in. Question is, how long is one willing to spend getting it to that point.

 

[Walkalong]

While I agree that the pro auto disk doesn't have fine adjustment I don't think that has anything to do with being accurate.

Probably quite true. I have not used that measure. My Hornady pistol measure with the different bushings was very consistent.(accurate) My only point here is the lack of versatility of that type measure.

 

[1SOW]

Thanks guys.

I have measured several times the "weight" on both charges I mentioned, and they were within a gnats A#$ of perfect weight.

The books say 'jumping' up .3 grains is still a perfectly safe load.

My question was/is what results could I reasonable expect from this new 4.6 load given the results from the 4.3 load--990fps chrono'd.

RidgwayCO gives a rough guess formula that hits right in the range I'm loading for. I have a chrono to use and will until I'm completely satisfied.

I'll give the 4.6 load a try. If it does hit in that range, I'm happy and will load a bigger batch. If those continue to shoot well I'll load a much bigger batch.
If it doesn't work out, I'm Left with lengthing or shortening the OAL "slightly". I want the load to reliably make the `125 power factor but keep muzzle flip to a minimum necessary to do that.

I shoot too many rds to weigh every single load.

When this 1000 rds of win 124s and pound of win 231 is gone, I'm switching to Precision delta 124/fmj bullets and will start over again. If the Win 231 shoots clean, I may stay with it. If it doesn't I'll probably try the Tite-Group

PS. 231 really shot dirty/sooty at 4.3 and 990 fps.

When I get it where I want it, This is THE ONLY LOAD THIS RELOADER WILL BE USED FOR.

Thanks again for the info.

Don

 

[rfwobbly]

How would you sneek up on this 9mm load

On tip-toes in a pair of size 11 New Balance 748's.

 

[Walkalong]

My question was/is what results could I reasonable expect from this new 4.6 load given the results from the 4.3 load--990fps chrono'd.

Don't know. We would be guessing, as I posted earlier. Only way to know for sure is load a few and shoot them as you posted.

You want a guess?

Avg 1072 FPS.

Let me know how close I was.

On tip-toes in a pair of size 11 New Balance 748's

Oh yea, the only way to do it.

4.4 Grs of 700X and a Zero 125 Gr JHP gave me an Avg 1197 at 50 Degrees from a 16" barrel. 5.1 Grs of N330 and a Master Match 125 Gr JSP gave me an Avg 1176 FPS at 69 Degrees from a 5" 1911.

I just started playing with 124/5 Gr bullets in 9MM again.

 

[1SOW]

I'm new to this game and don't have experience to fall back on.

I apologize if I'm asking dumb questions, but I do learn from the responses.

Thanks for your attempts to set me straight.

 

[Walkalong]

Nothing to apologize for. Let us know how the 4.6 Gr loads shoot.

I am not a Titegroup fan. I would pick W-231 before it. AA #5 or WSF are good second choices in 9MM if you want to get more velocity with the 125 gr bullets and want cleanliness as well. N320, N330 & N340 will do great as well and are super clean, but cost more. 700X is very clean, cheap, and will get surprisingly good velocities in 9MM. It will get you to 1050 with 124/125 Gr bullets in a 5" barrel, very close in a 4". I would try it before Titegroup as well, but that's just me, I don't care for Titegroup, at least in the apps I have tried it in. 9MM might be different.

 

[RustyFN]

You might also want to try the charge bar that Lee sells for the disk measure. It is supposed to be adjustable to give you all of the in between measurements you are talking about. I have heard a lot of people that are happy with it. I have one but haven't used it much becasue I'm happy with what the disk's are giving me. I can tell you that the charge bar does not work good on light loads so be careful there if you buy one.
Rusty

 

[rfwobbly]

I apologize if I'm asking dumb questions...

Sorry brother, no such thing exists.

 

[rfwobbly]

N320, N330 & N340 will do great as well and are super clean, but cost more.

Amen.

 

[1SOW]

It will probably be next weekend before I can load, shoot & chrono the 4.6.

I hope it shoots less 'sooty' than it did at 4.3 grs. Every surface was black with just a few rds.
I will let you know how it goes

P.S. Walkalong: I wouldn't bet against you on the speed, because I'm betting on the same +/- a few

 

[1SOW]

Bingo!

Here are the Chrono results:

ORIG LOAD : Win 124 FMJ, 4.3gr Win 231, OAL 1.164" 990 FPS

New LOAD 1: Win 124 FMJ, 4.3gr Win 231, OAL 1.110" 1060 FPS

New LOAD 2: Win 124 FMJ, 4.6gr, Win231, OAL 1.164 1080 FPS


Truthfully, I was pleasantly surprised that shortening the COAL .054 added 70 fps avg.According to the Hogden & Lee load data my CUP pressure is also below listed, which wasn't very high.

The 4.6gr load listed higher CUP pressures, approached the 4.8 maximum load, burned more powder and left more residue. I'll stick with the 4.3 if it continues to feed reliably, meaning 100%.

Heh, Walkalong, you win the beer with the 1072 bet on the 4.6 load. Within 8 FPS---not bad.

I learned from all of you, and the experiment.

From all I've heard and read, I'll probably switch to N320 (4.0grs) even though it is soberingly more expensive, after my 231 runs dry.

Thanks

 

[1SOW]

One other aside related to using the Lee Auto-Powder Disk system;

If I get down to that perfect powder, perfect bullet and near perfect charge I may try something. The Auto disk instructions say you can stack disks, but keep the smaller one on top to prevent having a 'ledge' that won't drop the powder.

Lets say the #40 disk is .2 grains short. Using a "slightly" over size drill, drill a few thousandths oversize 1/16" deep on the bottom side of the disk. Measure the powder it drops. Do it again to slowly increase the hole capacity to get the powder drop you want.

With care, it should work and be just as consistent as the original. The drill bit would have to be very sharp and run at a speed that won't melt the plastic

This Disk would now only give the new 4.2 gr charge and only with the same powder. It might be worth the price of another disk if you shoot that load a lot.