How'd the Soviet Union & Warsaw nations settle on the 9X18?

[Dr_2_B]

Was wondering about this today and thought it might make for a nice discussion. We know they have a history of reverse-engineering western technology. How'd the Soviet Union & Warsaw nations settle on the 9X18? Recently they've moved toward the 9mm. But at the time, in the 1950s, they had two significant rounds to look at, the .380 and the 9mm, and they basically split the difference with the 9X18.


Anybody know the history there?

 

[legion3]

http://www.makarov.com/


Lots of good info here. Poke around a little.

 

[CZ57]

It was technology borrowed from the German's 9mm Ultra. A round that was in-between the 9 X 17 (.380) and 9 X 19mm. The Russians copied the design and used their own caliber bullet.

 

[WardenWolf]

The 9x18mm was originally based on the .380 (aka 9x17mm) Ultra that was developed towards the end of World War II. However, it was upsized some to prevent Western nations from being able to use captured ammo, hence its sizing at .362 instead of .357. The 9x18 round really is at the upper limits of what you can do with a direct blowback pistol like a PPK, Makarov, or similar. You can't put a full-sized 9mm round in one of those and have it be either pleasant to shoot or long-term reliable. It would just beat itself to death.

Russia wanted a firearm that was simple and cheap to produce, reliable, and accurate. They did not want to repeat their mistake with the Tokarev, which required tight tolerances to be accurate (which is why only a few countries' Tokarevs, Russia not included, were accurate). They took some inspiration from the Walther PPK, and improved upon it in creating the Makarov. Other countries followed suit and created their own 9x18 firearms, some based more on the PPK than others, though the Makarov itself is generally regarded as the best for features and trigger.

 

[Pilot]

Wardenwolf said it.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Plus the Ruskies really didn't see the Mak as a infantry combat weapon like the 1911.

It was a badge of rank as well as a close range protection gun. A pocket pistol like what the Germans used in WW2. Different roll than what we envisioned.

Deaf

 

[Evil Monkey]

The 9x18mm and makarov pistol is a result of communist manufacturing mentality.

Let's create a standardized, low cost pistol, that is dependable.

Of course it had to be blowback, because they were going to use a steel casing for the cartridge and blowback tends to work better with steel casings than short recoil due to immediate extraction after detonation. The casing doesn't have time to fully expand in the chamber because it's already being dragged out when the primer goes off. Also, the extractors on blowback pistols have a curve to them, allowing for more rim area to grab onto. The tilting barrel short recoil pistols have a straight edge extractor that doesn't grab enough rim.

The makarov is really a result of the cartridge.

Why they chose something as weak as 9x18mm to replace the 7.62x25mm has to do greatly with the fact that the Russians no longer had a doctrine for SMG's when the AK came out. At the same time, they needed a new pistol and more practical cartridge for handgun use. The 9x18mm is the result....

 

[NG VI]

It's not really "between" .380 and 9mm except in a really technical sense. It's much more of a warm .380 (like it's apparent inspiration, 9mm Ultra) than a cartridge that's halfway from .380 to 9mm.

 

[orangeninja]

You guys are all wrong. Mr. Makarov accidentally walked in on Stalin who was dressed in drag while singing the Wienerschnitzel song. When Stalin asked what it would take to keep this quiet...well the rest is history.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Stalin had LOTS of ways to keep people quiet. Infact, he likely saved millions on ammunition shooting his own people by using the 9x18.

 

[rcmodel]

And for that, the 9x18 worked especially well.
One round to the back of the head = No fuss, No muss, No bother.

Better in fact then the 7.65x17mm used for the same purpose by the Germans.

rc

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

As an example of... Even if you think it's a stupid question - go ahead and ask it as you're probably not the only one wondering. Only a couple of hours ago I was stumbling through the various 9's and never saw an easily presented answer to this very question from the point of view of .380/Mak/X19.

Thanks for asking and thanks fellas for the answers. I wonder how long I'll remember them.

 

[RON in PA]

My understanding is that the 9x18 case is based on their old 7.62x25 Tok case trimmed and without taper. They wanted to utilize their old cartridge case making machinery. The 7.62x25, 9x18 and 9x19 para all have the same base diameter. When the Makarovs first became available in the US in the early 1990s many of us handloaded for it by trimming 9x19 cases and then expanded them enough to accommodate the larger .363 diameter bullet.

 

[Pilot]

When the Makarovs first became available in the US in the early 1990s many of us handloaded for it by trimming 9x19 cases and then expanded them enough to accommodate the larger .363 diameter bullet.

Many of us still do that. It works great.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

And for that, the 9x18 worked especially well.
One round to the back of the head = No fuss, No muss, No bother.

Better in fact then the 7.65x17mm used for the same purpose by the Germans.

Well, ironically, Stalin's executioner-in-chief, Vasili Blokhin, reportedly used the Walther Model 2 chambered in .25 ACP. He personally shot all of the Old Bolsheviks that Stalin purged, as well as pulling the trigger on 7,000 of the victims of the Katyn Massacre. Even my Russian Studies professors were blown away by this.