HP38 and Berrys 230 RN

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And you were right. I loaded up four rounds of test loads at 4.6, 4.8, 5.0 and 5.1. The 5.0 worked great. I am going to do another two five round batches of 4.9 and 5.0 to compare.

It was actually a bad day to test loads. First, I brought my wife. I love spending time with her shooting, but working test loads while sharing a lane is a no go for me in the future. Next, someone fell out at the range. I heard "cease fire!!" turned around and saw someone laying on the ground. My heart sank. Luckily the guy split his thumb on his slide and passed out from the blood. Still had me a bit rattled.
I don’t know (have never tried) if I could distinguish any difference between loads that similar in weight of same powder. Maybe sitting, using a support, but I still doubt I could tell. I try 4.6 v 5.1.

I can’t share a lane and in fact if most anything distracts or disrupts my range routine and I was shooting for primarily for accuracy (not testing loads, gun mods, etc) I simply pack up and go home. I cannot regain the focus. During much of the past 18 months, the NRA HQ range closed every other lane and I really liked the relative solitude.
 
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CZ97, Berrys 230 Gr RN, 10 yards with my last six rounds.
View attachment 1016272
That’s good shooting. I’ve never shot a CZ, but if could have approached this with my government model 45ACP 1911s before the pandemic there is no way I can now. My corrective lenses in my shooting glasses are hopelessly out of date, my hands feel beat up after just 50 rounds, and lack of practice has taken a toll. I hope I can get it back, but who knows.
 
I don’t know (have never tried) if I could distinguish any difference between loads that similar in weight of same powder. Maybe sitting, using a support, but I still doubt I could tell. I try 4.6 v 5.1.

I can’t share a lane and in fact if most anything distracts or disrupts my range routine and I was shooting for primarily for accuracy (not testing loads, gun mods, etc) I simply pack up and go home. I cannot regain the focus. During much of the past 18 months, the NRA HQ range closed every other lane and I really liked the relative solitude.

I didn’t notice the differences too much with this load, but they were there. Definitely noticed it with 9mm and 40.

My wife is just getting into shooting, so it’s good that I’m there as she is still nervous. She said she wanted to get comfortable enough to be ok with going to the range by herself which made me feel good.

I did learn that I need to be by myself when testing loads, so at least I learned one thing that day.
 
my first group of testers ... was 4.5, 4.7 and 4.9
You may want to add 5.0 and 5.1 gr and see if they are more accurate than 4.9 gr load.
5.0 worked great. I am going to do another two five round batches of 4.9 and 5.0 to compare.
Nice range report.

I still suggest you consider testing 5.1 gr for your next range trip due to this reason. There are "accuracy nodes" that exist as chamber pressure builds that reloaders often see around start charge (For faster burning powders) and around mid/high/near max load data (For slower burning powders). Sometimes there are more than one accuracy node for a particular powder and bullet combination.

What I often see many reloaders do when they conduct powder work up is after achieving sufficient chamber pressure build to reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent case and chamber the next round from the magazine, stop the powder work up when "acceptable" accuracy is obtained. Well, thing is you do not know whether this level of accuracy is the start of the accuracy node or the end.
Does HP38 works best at mid, or near max?
To determine the full extent of the accuracy node, you essentially need to test powder charges before and after the node or extend the test to max powder charge to see which powder charge produces the smallest groups consistently and repeated on multiple range trips.

And if your working OAL is longer than published and smallest groups are produced using below max powder charge, you should next incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" to see if group size decreases. If you get smaller groups, use shorter OAL. If group size gets larger or remain the same, use the OAL that minimize/eliminate bullet setback to produce smallest groups consistently and repeatedly.

I don’t know (have never tried) if I could distinguish any difference between loads that similar in weight of same powder. Maybe sitting, using a support, but I still doubt I could tell. I try 4.6 v 5.1
With such small charges sometimes .1 Gr more makes it all start coming together. Maybe you won’t feel it, but it will show u as cleaner burning more accurate etc
Yes, Walkalong is correct.

While we many not notice the .1 gr difference due to other reloading and shooting variables (Powder charge variance could be greater than .1 gr, finished OAL/bullet seating depth could be significant, bullet setback could be a factor due to use of mixed range brass/headstamp with varying case wall thickness, trigger control/grip may not be sufficient to add input to the POI away from POA, etc. etc.), many pistol powder start/max charge ranges are around 1.0 gr and some around 0.5 gr.

To me where 0.1 gr makes the biggest difference is when chamber pressure builds enough to produce more consistent pressure averages for more efficient powder burn to produce more consistent muzzle velocities. We often see this trend as we work up from published start charges where groups are more like scatter pattern and gets tighter as chamber pressures become more consistent. And at this transition point, sometimes 0.1 gr can make a difference we can see on target as tighter groups or measurable group size reduction.

I didn’t notice the differences too much with this load, but they were there. Definitely noticed it with 9mm and 40.
Unlike lower pressure 45ACP, 9mm/40S&W are higher pressure calibers and more susceptible to subtle changes in pressure, even from small powder charge changes.
 
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Nice range report.

I still suggest you consider testing 5.1 gr for your next range trip due to this reason. There are "accuracy nodes" that exist as chamber pressure builds that reloaders often see around start charge (For faster burning powders) and around mid/high/near max load data (For slower burning powders). Sometimes there are more than one accuracy node for a particular powder and bullet combination.

What I often see many reloaders do when they conduct powder work up is after achieving sufficient chamber pressure build to reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent case and chamber the next round from the magazine, stop the powder work up when "acceptable" accuracy is obtained. Well, thing is you do not know whether this level of accuracy is the start of the accuracy node or the end.

To determine the full extent of the accuracy node, you essentially need to test powder charges before and after the node or extend the test to max powder charge to see which powder charge produces the smallest groups consistently and repeated on multiple range trips.

And if your working OAL is longer than published and smallest groups are produced using below max powder charge, you should next incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" to see if group size decreases. If you get smaller groups, use shorter OAL. If group size gets larger or remain the same, use the OAL that minimize/eliminate bullet setback to produce smallest groups consistently and repeatedly.


Yes, Walkalong is correct.

While we many not notice the .1 gr difference due to other reloading and shooting variables (Powder charge variance could be greater than .1 gr, finished OAL/bullet seating depth could be significant, bullet setback could be a factor due to use of mixed range brass/headstamp with varying case wall thickness, trigger control/grip may not be sufficient to add input to the POI away from POA, etc. etc.), many pistol powder start/max charge ranges are around 1.0 gr and some around 0.5 gr.

To me where 0.1 gr makes the biggest difference is when chamber pressure builds enough to produce more consistent pressure averages for more efficient powder burn to produce more consistent muzzle velocities. We often see this trend as we work up from published start charges where groups are more like scatter pattern and gets tighter as chamber pressures become more consistent. And at this transition point, sometimes 0.1 gr can make a difference we can see on target as tighter groups or measurable group size reduction.


Unlike lower pressure 45ACP, 9mm/40S&W are higher pressure calibers and more susceptible to subtle changes in pressure, even from small powder charge changes.

Thanks for the advice. I do believe I’ll put that in the works for this week. I did have a slight negative difference in accuracy between 5 and 5.1, but that certainly could’ve been me considering the distractions of the day. Good idea to give it another go.
 
And you were right. I loaded up four rounds of test loads at 4.6, 4.8, 5.0 and 5.1. The 5.0 worked great. I am going to do another two five round batches of 4.9 and 5.0 to compare.

It was actually a bad day to test loads. First, I brought my wife. I love spending time with her shooting, but working test loads while sharing a lane is a no go for me in the future. Next, someone fell out at the range. I heard "cease fire!!" turned around and saw someone laying on the ground. My heart sank. Luckily the guy split his thumb on his slide and passed out from the blood. Still had me a bit rattled.
When my wife and I go to the range together she ALWAYS gets her own lane. My switching hands distracts and disturbs her. And, she finds it annoying that I grab the back of my belt when shooting one-handed.
 
This is 5.0 (not 5.1) with an Xtreme 230,
5" 1911, mixed range brass, WIN LP, charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 5
Date: 5/14/2017
Time: 2:34:54 PM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 757
Low Vel: 723
Ave Vel: 738
Ext Spread: 34
Std Dev: 12
Xtreme 230 RN HP38 5.0 1.233 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
741 170.43 280.392
757 174.11 292.632
735 169.05 275.87
736 169.28 276.621
723 166.29 266.935

So 738 avg, 5.1 of course would be a bit higher
 
743FDCBA-BE30-49B4-8EBE-CFC24D5C8101.jpeg Finally had a chance to try these the other week. I was knocked out of doing much of anything while being laid up with covid.

Starting at 4.6 grains I saw something odd. I had unburnt powder, sooty cases and flat primers for some reason. They are Federal LPP and I'll admit that I wasn't too concerned because even in Federal factory rounds I get that.

The soot and unburnt powder didn't subside till 5.2 grains and I just felt something was off. Max on Hodgdon's website is 5.3 and I'm still seeing this. I did increase the OAL from what Berrys listed as 1.237 to 1.26.

I went back to my room and picked up a Lyman manual which has their max for a 230gr Speer TMJ and a cast 225gr at 5.8 grains of 231.

Went to the range today after loading up 10 at 5.4 and 10 at 5.5 grains and here are the results at ten yards.
 
Starting at 4.6 grains ... I had unburnt powder, sooty cases ... The soot and unburnt powder didn't subside till 5.2 grains

... I did increase the OAL ... to 1.26.

... Went to the range today after loading up ... 5.4 and ... 5.5 grains
Thanks for the updated range report. I posted that while Hodgdon max was 5.3 gr, they used shorter 1.200" OAL and using longer OAL will require more powder as illustrated by Speer max of 5.6 gr using 1.240" OAL and you are using even longer 1.260". I was using 1.240"-1.250" and unburnt powder didn't subside until 5.0 gr and with your longer 1.260", unburnt powder didn't subside until 5.2 gr, which makes sense.

When using shorter than published OAL, I tend to reduce start/max charges by .2-.3 gr and opposite when using longer than published OAL. With my 1.240"-1.250" OAL, I was happy with accuracy produced with 5.2 gr. With your longer 1.260" OAL, using higher powder charges of 5.4 and 5.5 gr is in line with my test results.

Now, since you are not at max charge using longer OAL, you may want to incrementally reduce the OAL by .005" and see if group size decreases. If it does, you want to use shorter OAL and then reduce powder charge incrementally until group size increases. So if reducing OAL down to 1.240"-1.250" reduces group size, you can then reduce powder charge down to 5.3 and then 5.2 gr if accuracy trends. ;)

From post #18 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/hp38-and-berrys-230-rn.892958/#post-12015971

"Depends on the OAL used. Longer the OAL, more powder.​

... Here's Hodgdon load data
  • 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN W231/HP-38 COL 1.200" Start 4.3 gr (699 fps) - Max 5.3 gr (834 fps)
Speer lead load data uses 1.240" and lists 5.6 gr as max
  • 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN W231 OAL 1.240" Start 5.1 gr (794 fps) - Max 5.6 gr (853 fps)
Notice published OAL/COL for Hodgdon is shorter at 1.200" and Speer is 1.240". If your working OAL is longer at 1.240"-1.250", I found while 5.0 gr worked to reliably cycle the slides of M&P45/1911s and produced good accuracy, there was some unburnt powder spray.​

You may want to add 5.0 and 5.1 gr and see if they are more accurate than 4.9 gr load.

For me, 5.1 gr reduced the powder spray with greater accuracy and 5.2 gr slightly smaller groups."​
 
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I load .45 ACP for my autoloader (a Colt Commander [lightweight]) at hardball equivalent levels. 230 grain FMJ at an average of 870 fps. I used W-231 (see above) to do that and it worked fine. Always functioned and grouped in a IPSC type target at 50 yards.
I think I remember the load, but you can duplicate it with the above information. It's not hard. I did it.
 
I like 700-X under a 230 RN in a 45 ACP. I load the same powder load for cast, jacketed, coated or plated bullets with 5.0 grains of 700-X. This load is near or at maximum so work it up.

If I could not find any 700-X, HP-38/W231 would be one of my alternate powders. I'm not near my reloading records at the moment but loads from a reputable source will work fine.

Accurate #5 is another good alternate.

I load to a COL of 1.250". Fits the magazine and I've never had a 1911 that refused to feed it.

But, lots of good information already posted.

I load to approximately match 230 RN ball ammunition.
 
Little update to this thread. I was loading up the rest of a batch of RMR 124gr FMJ when I thought to look at recipes on my jug of HP38 for 9mm and 45 (I was loading the 9mm with TG).

For some reason Hodgdon's website and their book has the max listed at 5.3, but the jug has it listed at 5.6.

Think for tomorrow I'm going to make up 10 at 1.25 and compare it to the 1.26 I settled on after I finish a batch of 40.

Putting the pieces of the puzzle together is definitely my favorite part of reloading.
 
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