HP38 vs. W231?

[antarti]

Made the trip to the nearest reloading specialty store (40 mins) and was looking for some of the highly recommended (on this forum) powders for .45ACP.

I found Clays, Universal, AA#2&5, but no W231 (temporarily out). Clerk puts a can of HP38 on the counter and says "same thing, a touch cheaper". I asked "same burning rate?" he says, "no, really, they are the SAME THING, just re-labeled by Hodgdon and Winchester, loads should be within .2 grain of each other, but they are the exact same base powder." Didn't buy subject to checking this out.

If it were the same and cheaper, wouldn't all the 231 fans be using it?

Is this good info? I did check some manuals at home, and they really are close in all loads, i just wonder if they really burn/load/are the same.

Thanks for any help.

 

[somerled]

I've read HP-38 and Winchester 231 were the exact same thing in other places. Hodgdon's power burning rate chart, which lists powders from fastest to slowest in burning rates, lists both 231 and HP-38. They are next to each other, however. HP-38 is 18 and 231 is 19 on the chart.

I'd err on the side of caution. There's been cases when companies have switched powder suppliers but kept the same brand labeling. It is also good to back off the loads a bit when switching from an old lot to a new lot of the same powder, especially when the loading is close to the maximum listed in manuals.

Hodgdon's folks have always been helpful when I've contacted them. Here is some contact info:

Feel free to contact us in any of the following ways. We offer free technical support during business hours of 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Central Time.



Electronic Mail
[email protected]
Telephone 913-362-9455
Fax 913-362-1307
Postal Address P.O. Box 2932
Shawnee Mission, KS 66201
Web Site www.hodgdon.com

 

[41 Redhawk]

There are something like 5 powders that are the same between Winchester and Hodgdon. H110 and Win 296 are the same thing. I believe HP38 and 231 are the same as well. Hodgdon will verify that for you.

 

[HSMITH]

They are the same powder, the only difference being typical lot-to-lot variations.

It is one of those powders that works OK for a lot of cartridges but for most cartridges there is a powder or three that will work better.

 

[Deavis]

IIRC they are both produced in the same factory out of Florida and the only differences are the labeling and the fact that Winchester puts taggets in their powder. Other than that, they are supposed to be identical from what I have been told.

 

[bakert]

Although I've used some of the powders mentioned, being a rather timid reloader regardless of whether they are the same or not I would still use the data for that particular powder from that company or a good reloading manual.

 

[The Bushmaster]

If it doesn't say W-231 on the canister. It ain't W-231....

 

[zeke]

Am using hp-38 for lead target loads in various calibers, and like it alot. Read an article stating hp-38 and 231 are the same powder from same manufacturer and shipped to Win and Hodgen. In my experience and by looking at numerous loading manuals over the years, 231 is a tad slower. What isn't clear to me is that one of the companies may be further processing their version (adding some coating or what ever).

 

[Deavis]

If it doesn't say W-231 on the canister. It ain't W-231

Uh-huh... and my Craftsman Impact Gun isn't actually an Ingersoll-Rand. I mean, I know they look the same, have the same parts, have identical instructions, have identical specs, but the Craftsman has a chromed front housing and the IR has a black housing. OBviously, they must be totally different from each other. No manufacturer in the world would possibly remark something and sell it under a different brand name. It just wouldn't make sense!

I called the guy (he is a winchester platinum distributor) who told me this just to confirm. He told me that they are indeed the same exact powder, Winchester just adds taggets to theirs. It really is that simple.

 

[antarti]

Everyone, thanks for confirming this.

Just so everyone is clear, I wouldn't ever load one powder with another powders data .

I just was curious and leery of what I was told, that they were the identical powder and trying one is basically trying the other.

I went back and spoke to the clerk again, he said both were in fact the same stuff, shipped from St. Marks, which is a short drive from where I work.

Now, if I could just convince St. Marks/Primex to sell me a keg at their price...

 

[Jim Watson]

"He told me that they are indeed the same exact powder, Winchester just adds taggets to theirs."

Now that is an interesting factoid. Do you have more information on the subject? I worked in the field at one time and the concensus was that nobody was going to add taggants to propellant powders and explosives unless required to by law, the reformulation and testing would just be too expensive to do on a voluntary basis.

I have seen a keg labeled HP38 opened for the first time and a packing slip headed "231" taken out, which pretty well convinced me. My several year old can of W231 is about two tenths "slower" than fresh HP38 but appearance, metering, cleanup, etc. are the same. Lot to lot variation, age in storage, or a little difference in specification from Hodgdon? I dunno. Dilution by "taggets" maybe, but I consider it very unlikely.

 

[Deavis]

Jim,

I wish I had more info for you on it and I'm going to see him this weekend so I'll ask if he can talk to his Winchester contact. I don't think it is anything nefarious on Winchester's part. I took away that they simply insert them for their own identification purposes internally. As for the speed difference, perhaps Winchester does a little final processing on it before they ship?

 

[Mal H]

Maybe it is indeed only for company internal powder identification similar to the little blue dots, red dots and green dots Alliant adds to their, uh, Blue Dot, Red Dot and Green Dot powders. I'm going to go check some W231 under a microscope right now. Film at 11.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Funny you should mention Craftsman tools, Deavis. I immedately ran out to check my tools (I make my living swinging wrenches) and lo and behold not one of them were craftsman. I had a bad run in with sears a few years ago and will not add to their couffers ever again. If I buy W-231, I would use load tables listing W-231. If I buy HP38, I would use load tables listing HP38. I would not buy W-231 and use load tables for HP38. Concidering all the hear-say that goes on I would be hard pressed to take anybody's word that a powder is the same as another powder. Sooo. With that said "If it doesn't say W-231 on the canister. It ain't W-231". And I would NOT suggest that anyone else do so either. I could wait for the new shipment to arrive and get my W-231. I usually restock when my canisters are about half full anyway.

 

[Smythe77]

As I have both HP-38 & 231 I treat them as two different powders & how I load them in different calibers is what I settled on in previous shooting & groupings.

 

[P0832177]

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET



The following modern smokeless powders are manufactured for Hodgdon Powder Company by Primex Technologies, Inc.

HP-38® HS-6
H110® H335®
H414® H870®
HS-7® BL-C(2)®
H380 ® H108®
H116® TITEWAD®
H872® TITEGROUP®
LIL' GUN® LONG SHOT®
H450

All of the above powders are Primex smokeless powder propellants as described on the following Spherical Material Safety Data Sheet dated 11/10/97.

Primex Technologies, Inc.
10101 9th Street North
St. Petersburg, Florida 33716
Transportation Emergencies Call Chemtrec 1-800-424-9300
Emergency Phone 1-850-925-6111

 

[Deavis]

Bushmaster, you sound like my grandpa. He was mad because Carftsman started using tamper-proof fastners on some of their products. Rather than go buy the proper tools to remove them and void his warranty, he stopped buying from them all-together. Why not just let Sears service it under warranty? Best not to ask that question.

Use the reloading data as it is printed, that is a good idea. Nobody said that HP-38 and W231 had identical burning rates. Due to the additive in 231, they don't. However, no matter how you look at it, Winchester tagging aside, they are the same exact powder produced in the exact same factory. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.

To categorize smokeless powders, Laboratory 16 combines
their qualitative determination of NG with measurements of
morphological characteristics and compares that information to
a smokeless powder database. The laboratory used this approach
to render a guess at the identities of the brand names of the two
powder samples. Powder 1 (Hi-Skor 700X) was correctly identified
as being consistent with IMR HiSkor 700X, but “curiously
without the yellow particles.” Powder 2 (231) was incorrectly
identified as Hodgdon HP-38. However, since both 231 and HP-
38 have been known to be manufactured by Primex Technologies
by an identical process, it is possible that the submitted Powder 2
sample (231) was indistinguishable from an archived sample of
HP-38.

http://aafs.micronexx.com/PDF/JOFS/JFS2001004_475/JFS2001004_475.pdf

Interesting article...

 

[The Bushmaster]

My problem, Deavis, was WITH their warranty. I broke a Phillips screwdriver tip. I was told by the sales rep (two different stores) that I had used the screwdriver in the wrong size screw and that they would not honor the warranty. My tools are predominately S & K Wayne with some Proto mixed in for good measure. I have NEVER been grilled as to how I broke any of them. Infact S & K asked me how I broke a 3/4 drive rachet head and I told them that I had used a 4 foot "Swede" on it while removing a Cat track. They handed me a new one at no cost and loaned me their 6 foot "swede". Sorry, but sears will not do that.

But I digress here. Afterall this is a reloading site.

 

[HSMITH]

I sure hope the guys that won't use data for HP38 while loading W231 or vice versa are cutting back 10% or more and using a chronograph and micrometers for developing a new load when they get a new can of powder even though the label says it is the same thing as they had in the last can. Lot to lot variation is evidently pretty large in some loadings.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but micrometers and chronographs don't lie, they are the same powder. Prove it to yourself.

 

[Deavis]

Yeah Bushmaster, I haven't been blown away with their warranty service either but I always end up getting things replaced the way I expected. I take good care of my tools but the gears in my 3/8 ratchet were too loose for my liking (from the start) and I finally got tired of it after a while and took it back.

1) They tried to give me a "rebuild" kit so I could replace the gears myself. I told them I bought it assembled, I expect it to be replaced the same way.

2) They tried to hand me a rebuilt ratchet that looks like it had been dragged across a concrete desert. I told him that my ratchet didn't look like crap and I wasn't about to replace it with one that did

Finally they relented and gave me a new ratchet just like they should have in the first place. It was a bit of a hassle but, hey, no worse than any other company I've dealt with when returning stuff I'd love to buy snap-on but they are ridiculously expensive and even I can't find a way to justify them even though I find a way to justify every reloading purchase I've ever made!

Anyhow, I urge you guys to read that article I posted a link to and check out the referenced material if you can. Pretty interesting stuff in there. Linking residues to powders means they don't need the taggants (with correct spelling now) put in by the manufacturers. I guess many criminals don't wash their hands or clean their guns?

 

[The Bushmaster]

Understand your plight as to the cost of tools, Deavis. I make a living with my tools and they have to be the best and I must be able to replace them at a moments notice as the loss of a tool is money out of my pocket.

Good hunting all