jdh
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HR 218 question...
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razorback2003
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I was trying to point out how sometimes state law is better than HR218 and can give some LEO's an advantage over the federal law. If say a NJ officer goes to Arkansas, then he would fall under HR218, giving him more restrictions than a TN or MS officer visiting Arkansas (due to both agreeing at a state level to allow each others' off duty police to carry). An individual may not fall under the HR218 restrictions if a particular state has less restrictions, such as Arkansas allowing many out of state LEO's to carry in public school buildings (which are govt owned) but not those with a concealed handgun license. Georgia state law allows all out of state LEO's to carry anywhere, again having less restrictions than HR218.
Let me try and get this straight. As a retired LEO, if I pass the LEOSA/HR218 course, I would be able to cross any state lines in the US without the fear of being arrested for possession of a concealed handgun? Or, would local law enforcement other than the state I live in, have the right to arrest me for concealed carry?
tpaw,
There is no, I repeat no, LEOSA course to pass. There is a requirement that you have been certified (as in qualified) with the same type of firearm you are carrying, either by your old department/agency, or by the state in whcih you reside.
As to crossing state lines without fear of being arrested, you could still get arrested, but probably wrongly if you followed the law. The thing about this law is that the burden of proof falls on you, the person carrying the weapon, to prove that you complied with LEOSA. Please, I ask that no one try to lure me into a legal argument about innocent before proven guilty on this. I was the LEOSA coordinator for my agency (nationwide) for 5 months. I know the statute, and the intent of the lawmakers, and how it is being interpreted to some good degree.
Remember that the ID card supplied to you by your agency (as required by the law) is not a pistol permit. That in combination with certification of firearms qualification (not to be confused with certification of qualification as a retired LEO in good standing) within the last 12 months either by your old agency or under state certification, will allow you to carry under this law.
There is no, I repeat no, LEOSA course to pass. There is a requirement that you have been certified (as in qualified) with the same type of firearm you are carrying, either by your old department/agency, or by the state in whcih you reside.
As to crossing state lines without fear of being arrested, you could still get arrested, but probably wrongly if you followed the law. The thing about this law is that the burden of proof falls on you, the person carrying the weapon, to prove that you complied with LEOSA. Please, I ask that no one try to lure me into a legal argument about innocent before proven guilty on this. I was the LEOSA coordinator for my agency (nationwide) for 5 months. I know the statute, and the intent of the lawmakers, and how it is being interpreted to some good degree.
Remember that the ID card supplied to you by your agency (as required by the law) is not a pistol permit. That in combination with certification of firearms qualification (not to be confused with certification of qualification as a retired LEO in good standing) within the last 12 months either by your old agency or under state certification, will allow you to carry under this law.
OK. I'm retired, have an ID card from my department, and a pistol license for full carry in the state that I live stamped Retired Police Officer. Now, I take the course that active LEO's take and qualify. I am given another ID card saying that I passed the police offciers firearms qulaification course. The card is good for one year. Question, can I legally conceal carry across state lines?
Aguila Blanca
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Yes.tpaw said:
Although I hope we're not talking at cross-purposes about "course." As Glenn Bartley posted just above, there is no "course" in the sense of a class to be taken. You have to qualify with your weapon. If you are qualifying with your old department and they have some sort of class in addition to just punching holes in paper, then that's what you have to do. I shoot at an indoor range and frequently encounter the firearms coordinator for the local PD. All they have to do is show up and shoot a minimum score on the "course" of fire, and they're qualified.
For those retired officers now living in my state but originally from other states, our state police department conducts qualification sessions periodically (don't recall if it's monthly or quarterly) that are open to out-of-state retirees. They show up with their carry weapon, shoot the course of fire, get a card and go home.
It does not matter what department you qualify with. As long as you qualify with a department within your state who gives the course. Not all departments give the course, so you have to find one that is closest to your home. The qualification consists of a written test, then going out to the range and punching holes in paper. The actual shooting course is the same one that active officers have to take. If you pass, you get a photo ID saying that you passed the police officers firearms qualification course, with a 24/7 phone number on it to verifiy the card.
Ragnar Danneskjold
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You're right, but you're wasting your breath on these forums when you talk like that.
Aguila Blanca
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Sir -tpaw said:
We are indeed talking in circles. I just spoke with the owner of the range where the local department I mentioned shoots their qualifications. The range owner is a business associate of a retired officer who shoots his annual recertification under the supervision of this department's firearms officer. I know the department's firearms officer. We've talked about their qualifiation test in the past.
There is NO written test. They shoot the paper, they either pass or fail, and they go home.
Perhaps your old department also includes some kind of written test in its annual (or semi-annual) recertification program. I don't know. Each department (or each state) sets their own rules. All I'm trying to say is that it is NOT universally true that there is a written test, and if you now live in a jurisdiction that doesn't administer one, you're just spinning your wheels looking to take and pass a written test that doesn't exist.
Coop de Ville
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Why do us cops have to requal every year when ccw holders only do it once?
-Coop
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Aguila Blanca writes:
It's more of a 20 question pop quiz just to see if your up on the use of deadly physical force for your state, in my case NY. It has no bearing on the shooting qualification course. Correct, you shoot paper, pass, get your photo ID card and go home.
It's more of a 20 question pop quiz just to see if your up on the use of deadly physical force for your state, in my case NY. It has no bearing on the shooting qualification course. Correct, you shoot paper, pass, get your photo ID card and go home.
Wichaka
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I am a LEO in WA State, a state firearms instructor, and have qualified retired officers under 218, there is no written/pop quiz test........just the actual firearms shooting qualification.
We use a sticker that is affixed to the back of the retired or current duty LEO's ID card, so they can carry in all 50 states. The sticker states the date qualified, who did the qualification, and what agency the instructor is from.
We use a sticker that is affixed to the back of the retired or current duty LEO's ID card, so they can carry in all 50 states. The sticker states the date qualified, who did the qualification, and what agency the instructor is from.
Wichaka
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CCW holders in my state don't have to qualify at anytime, they just get their permit, and carry.
Coop de Ville
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When I got my ccw in NC many years back, I had to take a course and live fire qualifiacation. After that it was good for X amount of years.
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Aguila Blanca
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The pop quiz is not required by HR218/LEOSA. Maybe your old agency/department makes it part of annual recertification for active LEOs, but it's not required for retirees. ALL that is required is to punch enough holes close enough to the center of the paper. It's just firearms requalification, not LEO recertification.tpaw said:
Aguila Blanca
Member
"Maybe it should be ..." is hypothetical. This thread began by asking what HR218 requires. What HR218 requires is that retired officers pass some agency's firearms qualification test.
As to up-to-date -- how are you going to do that? HR218/LEOSA makes it legal for you to carry concealed in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia. That makes 51 sets of laws and regulations you may fall under, at least partially. How are you going to keep track of that?
Don't make things more difficult. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say anything about the RKBA shall not be infringed if you keep up-to-date on use of lethal force laws.
As to up-to-date -- how are you going to do that? HR218/LEOSA makes it legal for you to carry concealed in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia. That makes 51 sets of laws and regulations you may fall under, at least partially. How are you going to keep track of that?
Don't make things more difficult. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say anything about the RKBA shall not be infringed if you keep up-to-date on use of lethal force laws.
My former agency gives us retiree a 15 minute speech each annual qual about "You aren't cops anymore so don't act like one. If you're in a shooting we won't be there to indemnify you like when you were working. Don't get drunk and carry a gun. Don't do anything stupid. Here, sign this form that you were briefed. Let's go shoot."
Aguila Blanca is correct tho. If there was the requirement to brief the retirees on every one of the states, territories, and possessions laws then they would also need to brief all the active LEOs on the same laws. I had a hard enough time getting my people scheduled for their mandatory state law updates and all the other training without worrying about updating anyone on laws in Guam, Puerto Rico, Washington, Florida, Maine, and the Virgin Islands.
Speedo66
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It's nice to hear about all these agencies that will requal their former members.
I work for a state agency in NY and there has been no mention of doing this for retirees since the law was passed. I don't believe it's going to happen before I retire in 8 months, or any time soon for that matter. I believe the reason is their potential liability, NY is a very litigious state.
They give a free license to certain retired peace officers in NY, I qualify, but it looks like I cannot start the process until I'm retired to get it free. It's a substantial amount I do not wish to pay, so I will have a gap of not carrying while the procedure runs it's course.
I work for a state agency in NY and there has been no mention of doing this for retirees since the law was passed. I don't believe it's going to happen before I retire in 8 months, or any time soon for that matter. I believe the reason is their potential liability, NY is a very litigious state.
They give a free license to certain retired peace officers in NY, I qualify, but it looks like I cannot start the process until I'm retired to get it free. It's a substantial amount I do not wish to pay, so I will have a gap of not carrying while the procedure runs it's course.
Aguila Blanca
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tpaw said:
You did?
tpaw#42 said:
I guess my glasses need to be checked ...
Greybeard
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I believe it was late last year that TCLOSE got their act together and made it acceptable for Texas DPS-Certified CHL instructors to administer a once-a-year shooting requalification. I learned of this from a retired New York PD Captain who brought me the paperwork and paid me a nominal fee to run him through a rather simple course of fire based upon TCLOSE guidelines.
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