Steve in PA
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Yeah, just a citizen......the plain jane, everday working stiff
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Yeah, just a citizen......the plain jane, everday working stiffAugustwest
Member
So this is getting OT, but I have to ask you Steve, do you really think that your career choice somehow makes you superior to the people who pay your bills?
Steve in PA
Member
I never said I was superior, only different. Doesn't mean I am better than you, or that you are better than me.....just that we are different.
The difference being is that I am held to a higher standard than you.
As I said, if I am involved in an out of state deadly force situation, will the headlines read........citizen Steve (with a CCW) was involved in..........or will it read, off-duty police officer Steve was involved in......???
The difference being is that I am held to a higher standard than you.
As I said, if I am involved in an out of state deadly force situation, will the headlines read........citizen Steve (with a CCW) was involved in..........or will it read, off-duty police officer Steve was involved in......???
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
personally i think the one who risks life and limb for those who whine, complain, and spout nonsense like "i know my rights because i read about them from reading about someones uncles wifes bosses niece's boyfriend who had his rights violated!" are more respectable.
the common folk dont seem to realize the elitist viewpoint they are taking.
"waaa waaa waaaaa! i'm more qualified to carry nationwide than so-and-so-with-a-badge because, well just because!"
the common folk dont seem to realize the elitist viewpoint they are taking.
"waaa waaa waaaaa! i'm more qualified to carry nationwide than so-and-so-with-a-badge because, well just because!"
Augustwest
Member
Uh, who said anything about more qualified? No more and no less is my point. Y'know, "We hold these truths to be self-evident?"
And I know my rights because absent my infringing upon someone else's, I am a free man, not "from reading about someones uncles wifes bosses..."
And fwiw Steve, I'm grateful for the service you perform and the risks you take. I just don't think that your choice to do so makes you any more deserving of holding onto your rights than anyone else.
And I know my rights because absent my infringing upon someone else's, I am a free man, not "from reading about someones uncles wifes bosses..."
And fwiw Steve, I'm grateful for the service you perform and the risks you take. I just don't think that your choice to do so makes you any more deserving of holding onto your rights than anyone else.
Diggler
Member
IMHO,
Out of your jurisdiction is just that, out of your jurisdiction.
If you want to carry everywhere because you're a LEO, become a federale'.
Otherwise, you're just a guy from another state. Do you know all the laws of all the states?
Out of your jurisdiction is just that, out of your jurisdiction.
If you want to carry everywhere because you're a LEO, become a federale'.
Otherwise, you're just a guy from another state. Do you know all the laws of all the states?
Diggler
Member
BTW,
If you're driving south to Florida in your minivan for vacation, and you see that there's a high-speed chase in progress, will you join the pursuit?
If you're driving south to Florida in your minivan for vacation, and you see that there's a high-speed chase in progress, will you join the pursuit?
Steve in PA
Member
If you go back and read one of my postings, I also said that CCW's should be treated like driver's licenses.....recognized my different states.
And in answer to......."Otherwise, you're just a guy from another state. Do you know all the laws of all the states?"
No, but I'm willing to bet I know a heck of a lot more than someone carrying "just" a CCW.
And in answer to......."Otherwise, you're just a guy from another state. Do you know all the laws of all the states?"
No, but I'm willing to bet I know a heck of a lot more than someone carrying "just" a CCW.
Steve in PA
Member
Don't be a fool..........
I don't drive a minivan
But if I see someone with a gun attempting to car jack a soccer mom in her minivan, then yeah, I'll do something.
I don't drive a minivan
But if I see someone with a gun attempting to car jack a soccer mom in her minivan, then yeah, I'll do something.
Diggler
Member
I would do something to stop it as well. And I'm not LEO.
I don't believe you can lawfully perform LEO duties in another state. If not, then you are CCW'ing primarily for defense of you and yours. Same as the 'rest' of us. You have no more of a right to self defense than any other citizen.
When our CCW is finally recognized like a driver's license, then carry all you want anywhere you want. Until then, you should have to pay $150 for FL CCW licenses like the rest of travelers.
BTW, I work in a secure location and had intrusive background checks done on me. The whole single-scope check. Still doesn't give me the ability to carry in any state.
I don't believe you can lawfully perform LEO duties in another state. If not, then you are CCW'ing primarily for defense of you and yours. Same as the 'rest' of us. You have no more of a right to self defense than any other citizen.
When our CCW is finally recognized like a driver's license, then carry all you want anywhere you want. Until then, you should have to pay $150 for FL CCW licenses like the rest of travelers.
BTW, I work in a secure location and had intrusive background checks done on me. The whole single-scope check. Still doesn't give me the ability to carry in any state.
Exempting certain classes of citizens from certain laws is a very bad precedent, which resembles a third-world oligarchy more than a Constitutional Republic.
If a law is so onerous that certain citizens should be exempted from it, then it is a bad law and should be repealed. On the other hand, if it is a good law, it should apply to everyone.
If an LEO wants to carry out-of-state, he or she should have to do like the rest of us, and throw down $200 for a CCW "permit". And he or she should have to spend hours reading up on the various state carry laws to stay "legal". And if they want to visit the 15 or so states that ban carry, too bad. They should have to do like the rest of us and either avoid those states, or travel unarmed through them.
As for the arguements that this is a "first step" towards nationwide recognition of CCW permits, can anyone cite where a state allowing off-duty cops to carry concealed led to a shall-issue CCW law? I didn't think so. All of the CCW laws that have been enacted have been as a result of grassroots efforts by the NRA and other pro-RKBA groups, in spite of efforts by many police "leaders" and organizations to oppose them.
If a law is so onerous that certain citizens should be exempted from it, then it is a bad law and should be repealed. On the other hand, if it is a good law, it should apply to everyone.
If an LEO wants to carry out-of-state, he or she should have to do like the rest of us, and throw down $200 for a CCW "permit". And he or she should have to spend hours reading up on the various state carry laws to stay "legal". And if they want to visit the 15 or so states that ban carry, too bad. They should have to do like the rest of us and either avoid those states, or travel unarmed through them.
As for the arguements that this is a "first step" towards nationwide recognition of CCW permits, can anyone cite where a state allowing off-duty cops to carry concealed led to a shall-issue CCW law? I didn't think so. All of the CCW laws that have been enacted have been as a result of grassroots efforts by the NRA and other pro-RKBA groups, in spite of efforts by many police "leaders" and organizations to oppose them.
Steve in PA
Member
So, a LEO should have to spend hours reading up on the various state carry laws to stay "legal".
But a CCW'er, is exempt from the same standard?
But a CCW'er, is exempt from the same standard?
CZ-100
Member
I agree!!
Diggler
Member
Steve in Pa
Steve in PA,
No, that's not the point.
The point is that we already do that. I have several pages of printouts and summaries researched from packing.org and other resources that I keep in my car just to drive to Florida.
Anyone, please explain to me how this law meets the criteria for 'equal protection under the law.'
I don't blame you for wanting this law. If there would be a law passed for blond, blue eyed computer programmers to be allowed to CCW nationwide, I'd think, 'not really fair to the rest, but cool, at least I can do it!' That doesn't make it right.
Steve in PA,
No, that's not the point.
The point is that we already do that. I have several pages of printouts and summaries researched from packing.org and other resources that I keep in my car just to drive to Florida.
Anyone, please explain to me how this law meets the criteria for 'equal protection under the law.'
I don't blame you for wanting this law. If there would be a law passed for blond, blue eyed computer programmers to be allowed to CCW nationwide, I'd think, 'not really fair to the rest, but cool, at least I can do it!' That doesn't make it right.
Under current law, they both are expected to know the various carry laws in each state they go through.
I've been on two long road trips in the last 6 months (one to the West Coast, and one up to Virginia), and yes, I spent *hours* reading up on the various carry laws in each state. It isn't simply a matter of which states will recognize your 'permit', as you also have to know the off-limits places for carry, which states you have to notify an LEO if you are carrying and pulled over, and how to transport your weapon through states that don't recognize your 'permit'.
Cops that go out-of-state should have to do the exact same thing I or any other American does in order to "legally" carry a weapon.
Like I said before: if a law is so bad and confusing that even cops (who as a general rule are much more versed in the law that us non-cops), it needs to be repealed. The last thing that needs to happen is that only those who are 1) more knowledgable (generally) in the law, and 2) more likely to catch a break from another cop in the event they do violate that law, are exempted from the law.
Steve in PA
Member
So, if my LEO ID/Credentials trumps my PA CCW in every way (and it does), then why shouldn't the states that recognize the CCW, recognize the LEO ID???
Diggler
Member
Once I get my nationwide CCW permit, I have no problem with LEOs carrying nationwide without a CCW permit.
Aguila Blanca
Member
This is also my concern.
LEOs all want us to support their push to get interstate carry recognition, but once they get it I sincerely doubt that many of them will be around to push for us ordinary "citizens" with CCWs to get interstate reciprocity. And for that reason I am opposed to this. It should be all or nothing -- if the LEOs want interstate reciprocity, they can have it when they help enact it for all CCW holders.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Perhaps because outside of PA you are NOT an LEO ... you are an ordinary citizen, a "civilian." Just like the rest of us.
Steve in PA
Member
I'll go back to a previous statement I made,
If I'm involved in an out of state use of deadly force, to which standard will I be held, a CCW'er.......or a LEO??? Still haven't got an answer for this.
Right now there is a push for a nationwide LEO carry law. If it goes through, it goes through, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll still carry out of state with my LEO ID.
But my question is still valid. A LEO, any LEO, not just me, has to "jump through hoops" to be qualified to carry a weapon, more so than any CCW'er in any state. You can jump up and down, scream and holler, but fact is fact.
In PA, getting a CCW is easier than getting a driver's license. So if a LEO has to go through all the things I listed in another post, why shouldn't it be recognized? Which is the basis for HR218.
PS. Hopefully this will be stay a civil discussion without it becoming a flamethrowing, pi$$ing contest like another thread.
If I'm involved in an out of state use of deadly force, to which standard will I be held, a CCW'er.......or a LEO??? Still haven't got an answer for this.
Right now there is a push for a nationwide LEO carry law. If it goes through, it goes through, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll still carry out of state with my LEO ID.
But my question is still valid. A LEO, any LEO, not just me, has to "jump through hoops" to be qualified to carry a weapon, more so than any CCW'er in any state. You can jump up and down, scream and holler, but fact is fact.
In PA, getting a CCW is easier than getting a driver's license. So if a LEO has to go through all the things I listed in another post, why shouldn't it be recognized? Which is the basis for HR218.
PS. Hopefully this will be stay a civil discussion without it becoming a flamethrowing, pi$$ing contest like another thread.
Diggler
Member
I would hope that you are held to the CCW'er standard. Out of your jurisdiction. Which means you can protect yourself or on behalf of those who are unable to protect themselves if there is danger to life or limb. No more than that. Same as everyone else. BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A LEO THERE.
Also, where is the logic that RETIRED LEO's still get to carry nationwide? This isn't a law enforcement tool that is being offered; this is buying off a segment of gun owners so they have no further stake in RKBA.
When all LEOs can carry anywhere they want nationwide, anytime they want, they won't give two ships about CCW for the rest of us.
Also, where is the logic that RETIRED LEO's still get to carry nationwide? This isn't a law enforcement tool that is being offered; this is buying off a segment of gun owners so they have no further stake in RKBA.
When all LEOs can carry anywhere they want nationwide, anytime they want, they won't give two ships about CCW for the rest of us.
goalie
Member
You are going to be held to the standards that any other out-of-state CCW holder would be held to: the state's standard for the use of deadly force. You will NOT be using that weapon legally in any offensive manner, a manner that a police officer possibly would, as you are not a LEO in that state. You are absolutely no different than I am when you are out of your jurisdiction, nor should you be. Ever.
A jury will not be able to hold you to any standard other than that of the state law that describes the lawful use of deadly force. Period.
Steve in PA
Member
I disagree. Because I am a LEO, it will matter greatly in a court of law.
A LEO, is a LEO.....it doesn't get "turned off". Much the same as a doctor, EMT, etc. They are not like mechanics, etc.... at the end of your shift you punch out and your wrenching day is over.
Guess, we'll see what happens.
A LEO, is a LEO.....it doesn't get "turned off". Much the same as a doctor, EMT, etc. They are not like mechanics, etc.... at the end of your shift you punch out and your wrenching day is over.
Guess, we'll see what happens.
Steve in PA believes erroneously that:
Cops outside of their jurisdictions are not COPS! They're citizens. Professional courtesy may get them out of a ticket but if they stick they're nose in out of state business without being invited to do so or without legal authority to do so they're doing it as a citizen and subjecting themselves to all that that entails.
Granting national CCW to LEO's may or may not be the right thing to do but if one is involved in an incident outside of their jurisdiction they should be treated no different from the way a citizen would be treated in the same situation.
COPS are not a special class of citizen. They are not military. They are not law makers. They produce nothing. They are not supermen or heroes. They are citizens who have chosen to be in a profession with the responsibilty to provide order to the collective (heck - they don't even have a responsibility to provide protection to individual citizens).
With that responsibility some necessary authority is attached. It seems that that authority has gone to some LEO's heads and makes them feel special. They best get over that or eventually the people they are providing order to may decide to fire 'em, change the rules and hire a new bunch.
If a LEO is out of his or her jurisdiction they better turn it off! Outside of their jurisdicition they are just plain vanilla citizens. A PA cop has no more rights or responsibilities in TX, OK, Ca or any other state they're in while outside of their home jurisdiction than those of a non LEO citizen.
Cops outside of their jurisdictions are not COPS! They're citizens. Professional courtesy may get them out of a ticket but if they stick they're nose in out of state business without being invited to do so or without legal authority to do so they're doing it as a citizen and subjecting themselves to all that that entails.
Granting national CCW to LEO's may or may not be the right thing to do but if one is involved in an incident outside of their jurisdiction they should be treated no different from the way a citizen would be treated in the same situation.
COPS are not a special class of citizen. They are not military. They are not law makers. They produce nothing. They are not supermen or heroes. They are citizens who have chosen to be in a profession with the responsibilty to provide order to the collective (heck - they don't even have a responsibility to provide protection to individual citizens).
With that responsibility some necessary authority is attached. It seems that that authority has gone to some LEO's heads and makes them feel special. They best get over that or eventually the people they are providing order to may decide to fire 'em, change the rules and hire a new bunch.
Steve, can you link some cases where someone was held to a higher standard because he is/was a LEO?
Happened here a few years ago that a LEO perjured himself to get a no-knock that resulted in the murder of an innocent man. He got a 9-month paid vacation. That doesn't sound like a "higher standard" to me.
Just admit it - you get special treatment and you think you're better than the people who back your paycheck.
Happened here a few years ago that a LEO perjured himself to get a no-knock that resulted in the murder of an innocent man. He got a 9-month paid vacation. That doesn't sound like a "higher standard" to me.
Just admit it - you get special treatment and you think you're better than the people who back your paycheck.
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