Hunting Elk with a Glock!

[K-Rod]

I was watching this hunting show today called The High Road. I think the hosts name was Keith Warren. He was Elk hunting on a ranch in Riggins, Idaho. He had some bad luck with his bow so the last day of his hunt he used his Glock! It was a .45auto, had tricked out sights & what looked to be a 2-3" extended barrel. The cartridges looked to be hollow points & he said they were 230gr. They called in a nice 2-3yr old wanna say 6pt bull. From a prone position at about 20-30yrds the elk was DRT. First shot was a heart shot that looked to be enough. The elk put his head down & took a stumbling step. The Guy put a second shot that looked to have hit the same spot as the first & the elk just fell over dead!

The Guy said this Glock was his SD weapon but always wanted to kill an elk with it. One of the nice things about Idaho is our seasons are long & your not restricted to just one weapon. You just pay extra for a permit. Just thought I'd share & you might be able to find the episode on the web if your interested in seeing it.

 

[IdahoHombre]

Thanks for sharing. I'll be checking into it ~

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

K-Rod, As usual, Keith Warren was hunting on a High Fence property. 90% of the animals he hunts are highly humanized and are very used to scheduled feedings. He promotes "hunting" on deer farms where you can literally walk up and pet most of the deer on the property. He is a slob "hunter" in most real hunters eyes and couldn't connect in fair chase if he had to.

Anyone that would promote hunting Elk with a .45 auto needs to be taken out back to the wood shed and beaten to within an inch of their lives. It's not in any way an ethical means to hunt free ranging Elk. Anyone can get a lucky shot in between ribs for that anemic pistol cartridge to have enough penetration to reach the vitals but in all reality, it is by far NOT a recommended way to "hunt" free ranging Elk.

 

[Weedy]

20 or 30 yards is a pretty long shot for MOST people with a "self-defense" handgun. I wonder how the footage was edited...

 

[jmr40]

I can make head shots on a human silhouett target quite easlily with any of my Glocks at 50 yards. Hitting the kill zone on an elk at 30 yards would be very easy. I would've used my 10mm instead of my 45, but at those ranges, with good ammo it will work. Folks do it all the time with bows, a 45 would certainly not be any less effective, at that range.

I'd have more of an issue with "hunting" animals that are basically tame (if true), than the choice of weapon.

 

[K-Rod]

Freedom,

I agree with you 110%. He was in fact hunting on a elk "Farm". I myself don't agree with this form of "Hunting". I always considered it more of slaughtering though I'm sure not everyone will agree with that. A lot of people around here(N. Idaho) bow hunt Elk, me included, so I don't think its that far fetched with free range/wild Elk. I won't try to debate if its ethical or not. 230g is a lot of lead though & at bow ranges, still packs quite a punch.

I'm not even a Glock fan honestly. I just thought that it was interesting.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Folks do it all the time with bows, a 45 would certainly not be any less effective, at that range.

I sure wish people would stop trying to compare Broad heads to bullets. They are 2 completely different things. A good broad head is razor sharp and penetrates because of cutting. A bullet has to have enough mass and energy to literally bust through. An arrow, in most applications, has 3 times or more than the weight of a bullet behind a razor sharp broad head to push it through. There is no comparison so please stop trying to justify the use of weak cartridge choices just because you can "do it with a bow at that range".

Most people of knowledge wouldn't even recommend .45ACP for white tail deer let alone Elk. Yes 230gr is a lot of lead but at pistol speeds it's not got enough energy to reliably penetrate heavy bone and muscle that Elk are comprised of.

 

[JohnM]

I'm glad Wyoming has kept those so called "game farms" outlawed.

 

[paintballdude902]

Most people of knowledge wouldn't even recommend .45ACP for white tail deer let alone Elk. Yes 230gr is a lot of lead but at pistol speeds it's not got enough energy to reliably penetrate heavy bone and muscle that Elk are comprised of

i see no issue shooting a whitetail with a .45 acp. heck ive gotten 2 with my 1909 in .45 long colt. shot placement and range is ur only limiting factor.

 

[countertop]

Ive taken a white tail at 50 yards with a .45 LC (never a .45 ACP) and would easily do it again. Though, I have to say that was on an extended barrell revolver and not a Glock. I'm a bit doubtful of any claims that someone can hit a head sized object all day long with a handgun at 50 yards. Sorry, I just won't believe it until I see it.

As for shooting an elk with .45 ACP. I don't doubt a perfect shot would work, but that seems a stretch. At least for a quick clean kill. And last time I check, a heart/lung shot wasn't a DRT shot.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

.45LC and .45ACP are 2 completely different animals. I would have no qualms at all with using a properly loaded .45 Long Colt for White tail at 40 yards or less. But there is about 200 to 300 pounds difference between White Tail and an Adult Bull Elk. With a properly loaded hot .45LC with maybe some Hard casts or SWC I would possibly think about it at ranges of 30 yards or less. But no loading of .45ACP would be within standards for Elk. Not any ethical standards anyway. But slob hunters have no ethics.

 

[K-Rod]

LOL!! OK Countertop, I'll give you that. It wasn't dead when it hit the ground but it hit the ground in its tracks & wasn't gonna get up. Last min twitches is all it was doing. My bad for misusing the "DRT" term

 

[jmr40]

I sure wish people would stop trying to compare Broad heads to bullets.

Don't read too much into my comments, I wouldn't do it either, but it obviously worked, and has worked with less powerful rounds.

Just because a broadhead works differently, does not mean it is better. Lots of unrecovered animals shot each year during bow season. Elk ain't bulletproof. A 200 gr hardcast 45 ACP@ around 1000-1100 fps will give a complete pass through at 30 yards on an elk. Bigger handgun rounds won't kill it any deader, just from farther away. An arrow won't kill it any deader, but it will kill it slower. You will most likely have to blood trail any elk shot with an arrow and give the animal at least 1/2 hour to die from the wounds.

One is just as lethal, and ethical as the other. It is up to the person shooting to know and understand his equipments limitations and to make sure they have the skills to use them.

 

[Robert]

I am fairly certain that would be illegal in CO, but I'd have to go back and make sure.

Per CDOW:

Handguns, provided they have a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches and comply with the following criteria:
a. Use a .24 caliber or larger diameter expanding bullet.
b. Use only a cartridge or load with a rated impact energy of at least 550 ft. pounds at 50 yds. as determined by the manufacturer.

Your average 45ACP does not even make the 550 ft. pounds at the muzzle let alone 50 yards. Sure you can push some +P rounds that much at the muzzle, but I doubt they will make the grade at 50 yards, which is what it takes to be legal in CO. ID may be different.
I make no assumptions as the the correctness but here is what I found in a quick Google search:
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

 

[Art Eatman]

Freedom, if those elk are all that tame, you might as well use a pistol. Hey, they work fine for "up close and personal".

Shame that the advertising revenue deal winds up with folks watching such stuff and we/they don't know the reality of the scam.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Aint it tha truth Art!

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

A 200 gr hardcast 45 ACP@ around 1000-1100 fps will give a complete pass through at 30 yards on an elk.

In what world??? MAYBE if you slipped between ribs and hit no shoulder or shoulder muscle you MIGHT get a pass through. And that is a BIG might. I take it you have never hunted Elk before jmr40. Or you completely overestimate the .45ACP power. I've rarely gotten full pass through with hard cast .44mag loads at 40 yards on bull elk! Only when I centered ribs with no shoulder would I get PT's.

 

[Robert]

I know one 45 that will get a pass through, 45-70

 

[saturno_v]

Freedom fighter


Let's first of all say that I totally agree that the 45 ACP (and hollow point to boot!!!) is totally inadequate even at very short distances on an Elk...however I have to take some issue about the "ethics" of bow hunting...maybe you can explain something that is not clear to me....


I'm not a hunter and I never hunted but I'm interested in the subject (I'm an avid firearm collector)

The vast majority of bow hunting I saw or heard, never ended on a DRT situation...the typical "arrow sticking out" scene, the animal runs away and has to be tracked often over long distances.....more often than not is not even recovered, again form what I hear.....

An animal that take times to die and often not recovered if what a lot of people in this forum define "non ethical hunting", just use enough gun etc....

Now, leaving aside a 45 ACP or a lesser cartridge, how is this different, let's say from hunting with a 10mm Auto with wide meplat hard cast bullets at bow hunting ranges??

It seems to me that bow hunting is less ethical by its very nature (less ethical meaning not rapid death of the animal involved)....from this perspective it seems to me that hunting a deer with a rifle is by definition more ethical than hunting it with a bow......am I correct???

I watched many videos and heard from a lot of people, never witnessed a DRT bow hunting situation...actually tracking the wounded animal is part of the experience, according to some people....it seems to me, again, that by firearms hunter perspective (here on THR), bow hunting is a typical example of "not using enough gun".....

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

saturno_v, You are correct that CAN BE slower. But with good hunters picking good shots, you will find your animal. The ethics problem with under gunning is the fact that, more often than not, the animal is just seriously wounded because the bullet didn't make it well into the vitals to result in a kill. So now you have an animal that's having to deal with a torn up shoulder or just one lung (survivable) because Joe Shmoe decided that a .45ACP was plenty of gun for a shoulder shot on an Elk.

Bow hunting is a totally different world. We have to get VERY close (within 40 yards) and pick our shots very carefully. Use proper broad heads that will open the animal up sufficiently to leave a good blood trail. While the killing blow is not dead right there, more often than not, an UNCHASED deer or Elk that was hit well in the lungs by a properly designed broad head will usually go no further than 100 yards and lay down. Hence the 30 minute wait rule.

The ethics battle between the 2 is not about how fast they go down, but more along the lines of did you actually kill it or is it just running around hurt and dying a slow miserable death. More often than not, deer or Elk don't go bang flop. They run just as far a lot of times from rifle or pistol shots as they do from a bow shot. Unless you connect with CNS they run. Now SOMETIMES they do drop in their tracks from a heart shot but that is actually few and far between. I've seen deer run hundreds of yards with absolutely no heart left after being hit twice with 150gr 8mm. The deer family is an amazing bunch of animals. They have a will to live stronger than just about any creature on Earth.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I am fairly certain that would be illegal in CO, but I'd have to go back and make sure.

Per CDOW:

Handguns, provided they have a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches and comply with the following criteria:
a. Use a .24 caliber or larger diameter expanding bullet.
b. Use only a cartridge or load with a rated impact energy of at least 550 ft. pounds at 50 yds. as determined by the manufacturer.

Your average 45ACP does not even make the 550 ft. pounds at the muzzle let alone 50 yards. Sure you can push some +P rounds that much at the muzzle, but I doubt they will make the grade at 50 yards, which is what it takes to be legal in CO. ID may be different.
I make no assumptions as the the correctness but here is what I found in a quick Google search:
http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

The only requirement Idaho has for hunting big game(minus Mt. Lion) with handguns is that it cant be rimfire and in short-range weapon seasons you have to use straight-walled cartridges not originally developed for rifles(.357, .44, 10mm, 9mm, etc.).

 

[Davek1977]

The vast majority of bow hunting I saw or heard, never ended on a DRT situation...the typical "arrow sticking out" scene, the animal runs away and has to be tracked often over long distances.....more often than not is not even recovered, again form what I hear.....

If you are "hearing" about bowhunters who more often than not lose thir game after making a shot.....you aren't hearing about "bowhunters" you are hearing about "guys with bows that try to hunt with them." there's a distinct difference....a slob bowhunter is no different than a slob rifle hunter...often someone who hasn't put in the time or effort to become proficient with the weapon they are using. I don't bowhunt myself, as I know i lack the patience, but know several people who take hunting with a bow pretty seriously, and each and every one would be sickened by losing an animal. Not top say it never happens, but its certainly the exception, rather than the rule. Sometimes, you lose them when rifle hunting too....but the fact of the matter is animal lose is a rarity among those who take the time to become familiar and proficient with their weapon of choice, no matter what it may be. If you are continually losing animals, or are hearing about those who do.....someone's ethics need top be checked. A real hunter is sickened by the lose of a game animal, and will make every attempt at making a good shot...or won't take the shot at all. A properly hit animal shouldn't be very hard to recover under most circumstances

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Idaho game laws wouldn't apply anyway. He was "hunting" on a game farm. They can use any method they want any time of year they want.

 

[Prosser]

Kind of curious. Was the guy using the buffalobore or Double Tap 255 Grain LFN's in .45 ACP?

That makes the .45 ACP=.45 Colt.

Also: What's the difference between a game farm and a ranch? If you are going to shoot a tame animal for food, isn't that exactly what happens to the pig, steer, etc. that I buy at the market?

Plus, we have the benefit of learning what works, and doesn't work on game animals.

 

[tarosean]

It seems to me that bow hunting is less ethical by its very nature (less ethical meaning not rapid death of the animal involved)....from this perspective it seems to me that hunting a deer with a rifle is by definition more ethical than hunting it with a bow......am I correct???

In my opinion. An arrow or bullet following the same exact path through the kill zone will have very similar outcomes..

Shot placement is key regardless of Gun vs. Arrow.... However, bow hunters do have a slight disadvantage, as the prey has a moment to react from a bow shot. The flip side is that the prey has a bullet in them by the time they hear a gun shot.