Hunting Elk with a Glock!

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ive shot a few deer and hogs with 45acps and 10mms and they got the job done. Would i hunt something like elk with them no. Not unless i was starving and it was all i had. I once watched a show on tv where ted nugget went after a rhino with his 10mm. He must have shot it 5 to 10 times and it finally was put down by a stopping rilfe. I like ted but cringed at that show. I notice it was never aired again so im sure they got lots of complaints.
 
Keith Warren is an entertainer for sportsmen. This does not make him a sportsmen and his actions prove this out. He is an entertainer. His shows are interesting to me.

I don't take him seriously. I doubt he takes himself seriously.


TR
 
I think high fences, and baiting all fall into the same ethical category, just like hunting big game with 22 cf rifles and handguns of energy lower than that of a 41mag.
That doesn't mean I don't believe the ACP will not kill a confined pen raised elk the same as a domestic pig or steer.
The state sets many of these distasteful parameters we don't have to follow the minimums.
 
jmr40 said:
I can make head shots on a human silhouett target quite easlily with any of my Glocks at 50 yards. Hitting the kill zone on an elk at 30 yards would be very easy. I would've used my 10mm instead of my 45, but at those ranges, with good ammo it will work. Folks do it all the time with bows, a 45 would certainly not be any less effective, at that range.

I'd have more of an issue with "hunting" animals that are basically tame (if true), than the choice of weapon.
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Video to prove that???
 
Kind of curious. Was the guy using the buffalobore or Double Tap 255 Grain LFN's in .45 ACP?

That makes the .45 ACP=.45 Colt.
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The hardest hitting Buffalo Bore in (muzzle energy) 45ACP is less than HALF that of a .45LC!

45 ACP +P Ammo - 185 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/M.E. 543 ft. lbs.)
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Heavy 45 Colt +P Ammo - 260 gr. J.H.P. (1,450 fps/M.E. 1,214 ft. lbs.)
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Not even a close race there. Sorry Prosser but that dog wont hunt! Thats like trying to compare the .22LR to a 5.56.
 
A question for the bow hunters.....can you kill, for example, this quickly with a bow??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rNAIvEaOwo


I remember many many years ago that we did shoot for fun at a tree with a pistol (do not remember the caliber was it was not a super boomer) and compared with a bow...as far as I can remember the bullet went farther than the arrow on the tree....
 
saturno, shoot a sand bag with a typical hunting round like say a .30/30 then with a compound bow at 70 pounds with a cut on impact broad head. You will note that the arrow will pass right through. The bullet will be stopped. Broad heads are not designed to deliver energy into the target, they are designed to use the energy of the bow to cut through tissue. Bullets are designed (hunting bullets) to deliver that energy into the tissue to create explosive damage (look up wound channel) into an animal to cause the most damage they can. They kill the same way (blood loss) but yet 2 different methods. Bullets by creating a temporary wound cavity rupturing blood vessels and also permanent wound cavity. A broad head zips through creating a permanent wound cavity the same size as the broad head. A lot of factors for both but in general, they are designed to accomplish the same goal. To kill an animal as efficiently and quickly as possible when delivered to the proper spot on the animal. Bullets do have the advantage of brute force when it comes to CNS but there have been many instances of CNS connection with arrows as well. Resulting in the same thing, deer drops in tracks.
 
I have killed several elk with a bow. All of them (that I killed) were double lung/heart shots and they expired as quickly as a similar shot with a rifle. Only one of them went beyond 30 yards or so.

However, I have lost a couple of elk because I just plain made a crappy shot. I no longer hunt with a bow and I have no plans to hunt with a bow in the future. The percentage of lost animals (for me) is just too high and bow hunting is not an ethical endeavor for me. That doesn't mean it isn't an ethical endeavor for others.

As a person that has killed dozens and dozens of elk (and a dozen more) I firmly believe a bow at 30 yards, even a 50 lb. old technology compound, when used with a suitable broad head, is much more ethical than a .45 ACP in any loading.
 
I don't take him seriously. I doubt he takes himself seriously.
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I could care less how seriously he takes himself. The issue here is how seriously he takes the animals he is shooting (NOT hunting). Anyone even pretending to be a hunter on TV should show some ethical restraint, instead of killing anything with whatever weapon they think will be "neat" regardless of suitability.
 
Freedom fighter


I know that is difficult to draw parallels but, just for sake of discussion, at a typical bow hunting ranges, the best performer bow with the most effective broadhead at what rifle caliber can be compared in terms of effectiveness on large game at the same range?? Effectiveness meaning a combination of rapid death and game size. For example, there are bows that can be as effective as a 338 Win Mag or a 375 (with their best performing bullets) at the same distance and on the same size of animal???

Let's leave aside wildlife defence scenario where, as you said, bullets have the CNS shot advantage...
 
Norm Abrams gets his cuts right every time, but we all suspect there's a burn pile behind his workshop.

It's nice when you can get a lucky shot with your plastic gun.
 
A good broad head is razor sharp and penetrates because of cutting. A bullet has to have enough mass and energy to literally bust through. An arrow, in most applications, has 3 times or more than the weight of a bullet behind a razor sharp broad head to push it through. There is no comparison so please stop trying to justify the use of weak cartridge choices just because you can "do it with a bow at that range".
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Yeah yeah. It relies on cutting which, depending on shot palcement relies upon bleeding to death and/or lack of oxygen which are not instant kills in most cases.


If you're ok with an arrow, then you should be ok with a bullet regardless of it's 'busting thru' method, it's got more power and kill potential than an arrow AND most people can fire a gun better than they can a bow/arrow. Or stop preaching 'quick humane kills' because there's nothing humane or about slow deaths from bleeding/oxygen deprivation.

Archery is under the 'primitive' classification for a reason.
 
Bow hunters have successfully harvested animals as big as cape buffalo. Good luck trying that with a .45ACP.

Warning: video contains some explicit language
http://www.bowhunting.tv/playvideowi...970554&id=1213
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Wait a minute.....the fact that you can do it does not necessarily means that is right to do it.....you can hunt a buffalo with a spear, that does not guarantee a quick kill.....

Is that video an ethical kill?? I do not think so at all....backed by a guy with a big boomer and we do not know how long it took for that cape buffalo to die.....

Shot at 20 yards or so

Sorry but I do not think there is any difference in "ethics" between that video and the 45 ACP on a Elk feat.....not at all the way I see it.....


I would not be surprised if a 45 ACP shooting heavy hard cast bullets would not get the same (inacceptable to me) results.....
 
If you're ok with an arrow, then you should be ok with a bullet regardless of it's 'busting thru' method, it's got more power and kill potential than an arrow AND most people can fire a gun better than they can a bow/arrow. Or stop preaching 'quick humane kills' because there's nothing humane or about slow deaths from bleeding/oxygen deprivation.
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Short of a Brain shot, NONE are "instant". Even spine shots are nowhere near "instant". The brain is still functioning. NO method of hunting carries instant death. What we as hunters have to resolve to ourselves is the FASTEST possible way to dispatch an animal while hunting. As Ankeny stated, most deer and Elk that I have shot has dropped within the same amount of time as with rifle and pistol for me. Some even faster. I ALWAYS go for the lungs with a bow because it will leave the best blood trail, is the easiest spot to pass through completely (ribs with no shoulder), and it creates more shock to the animal because it can't breathe. With a rifle, I will go for either high shoulder or center low shoulder. This will break the shoulders and take out both heart and lungs. With this combination, the deer will likely go a lot less distance between the shoulder trauma as well as the pulmonary and cardiovascular trauma.

As far as your implication that I am against rifle or pistol hunting, I am far from against it in any way whatsoever. What I AM against is people going after animals with weak cartridge choices as was noted in the OP. They do not have the power to RELIABLY take out an animal as large as an Elk and are therefor unethical. By unethical I mean that you are more apt to WOUND than to KILL.

saturno, With one of my bow rigs, I would have to say the damage comparison, in the same shot location on the animal, would be best compared to the damage of a .30/06 with 180gr SP. Although the entry wound is much larger from my setup, the exit wound would be about the same maybe a slight bit bigger according to if the bullet hit hard on the rib or not to really open up well. The rig I am referring to is a BowTech Admiral strung at 72.5 pounds with 30 inch draw length. Arrows are Carbon Express at 9.5 grains per inch (Older CX series) and G5 MonTech 3 blade 100gr cut on impact broad heads, and Blazer vanes. With this rig I am pushing 305fps. Total arrow weight is right at 318gr with vane, nock, and broad head. That's one and one eighth inch cutting diameter from a 3 blade cut on impact broad head. Creates a VERY lethal path if you are on your target on the animal. Internally, on the shot location I specified, the lungs would pretty much be mush from either weapon.
 
Wait a minute.....the fact that you can do it does not necessarily means that is right to do it.....you can hunt a buffalo with a spear, that does not guarantee a quick kill.....

Is that video an ethical kill?? I do not think so at all....backed by a guy with a big boomer and we do not know how long it took for that cape buffalo to die.....

Shot at 20 yards or so

Sorry but I do not think there is any difference in "ethics" between that video and the 45 ACP on a Elk feat.....not at all the way I see it.....


I would not be surprised if a 45 ACP shooting heavy hard cast bullets would not get the same (inacceptable to me) results.....
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You couldn't be more wrong there saturno_v. I'll buzz one of our resident African Game hunters we have on here (H&H) and let him educate you on that. If what the guy in the video said was correct and that buff was only laying 80 yards off, that is a LOT closer than a LOT of rifle hit buffs with the huge boomers. Short of a CNS, stopping a Cape buffalo is on par with trying to stop a bulldozer. They don't just lay down and die.
 
With a rifle, I will go for either high shoulder or center low shoulder. This will break the shoulders and take out both heart and lungs. With this combination, the deer will likely go a lot less distance between the shoulder trauma as well as the pulmonary and cardiovascular trauma.
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So the advantage of busting the shoulders with a rifle would be that the animal cannot run away so to you can administer a mercy shot if needed....something you cannot do with a bow...correct???


However, if you watch that buffalo bow hunting video I see nothing ethical about it.....in my modest opinion....we do not know how long it took for that buffalo to die.....it seems to be that a bow vs a buffalo is an inadequate weapon by modern "kill quickly" standard...granted, as we said, you can take one with a spear......
 
You couldn't be more wrong there saturno_v. I'll buzz one of our resident African Game hunters we have on here (H&H) and let him educate you on that. If what the guy in the video said was correct and that buff was only laying 80 yards off, that is a LOT closer than a LOT of rifle hit buffs with the huge boomers. Short of a CNS, stopping a Cape buffalo is on par with trying to stop a bulldozer. They don't just lay down and die.
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Ok..the buffalo was laying at 80 yards...but was it dead?? that is the question.....again, you are probably right do not get me wrong....I know these animals are built like a tank....


For me hunting with a backup is a bit unethical to start with.....you want to take a buffalo with a bow, accept the risk....
 
So the advantage of busting the shoulders with a rifle would be that the animal cannot run away so to you can administer a mercy shot if needed....something you cannot do with a bow...correct?
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Nope not correct. They can and often do still run. They just don't run as far. I've seen deer plow 50 yards on their face trying to keep going. As far as taking a cape with a bow, I don't hunt them because I meat hunt not trophy. I hunted trophy for many years and it took me a LONG time to realize that them horns don't even make a good soup! Looked to me like he shot a tad bit high on the animal but I am not an expert on the Cape Buff anatomy. Closest I have come to them is a Water Buff (nasty tasting beast but a whole other story there). But as I said, if it was laying down at 80 yards from them, that's a pretty successful bow shot on a cape. There is a reason they are in the top 5 most dangerous game animals. They are incredibly tough and will kill you as soon as look at you.
 
For me hunting with a backup is a bit unethical to start with.....you want to take a buffalo with a bow, accept the risk
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LOL@ that. I don't care if I was hunting with my .470NE I would STILL want someone with another boomer with me just in case! As would ANYONE with half a brain.
 
Freedom Fighter:
I'm talking about real .45 Colt, not the .45 Magnum stuff Tim Sundles is loading, and calling Plus P. Real .45 Colt is moving a 260 grain bullet under 1000 fps, most of the time around 900.

Look here for real .45 Colt pressures, and velocities:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp


Also, this isn't about energy. a 255 grain LFN going 900-1000 fps is far better then a higher energy 185 grain HP for big animals.

Smale: What do you use in your 45 and 10 for hunting?

I would also like to see how well a LFN .45 200 grain bullet penetrates on game.

I also wonder if the Glock in question had some sort of conversion and barrel, say to .460 Rowland or .45 Super?
 
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LOL@ that. I don't care if I was hunting with my .470NE I would STILL want someone with another boomer with me just in case! As would ANYONE with half a brain.
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Sorry but I do not agree on that....ask to our friend Caribou which hunts (for meat) the big and dangerous stuff up in Alaska often without a backup....at least not a formal one...
 
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