Hunting for Trophy?

[ZeroJunk]

I can shoot deer out my bathroom window. I am planting the place down in soy beans next year so it will just get worse. If not for trophy hunting there would be no hunting.

 

[H&Hhunter]

The only times I have seen that were in gun magazines where they have articles about someone going solo and then all you see is him packing out with the rack on his backpack and no sign of what happened to the meat. Especially true with sheep and goat hunters.

Oneounceload,

No offense here but this^^^^^^ is an extremely ignorant statement. The reason that you only see the horns on a sheep or a goat pack out picture is because the meat has all been boned out (that means stripped off the bones) and is internally packed in the back pack. The horns are tied down by the top cover on the top of the pack and don't fit internally which is why you see them and that is the only part of the animal that you see.

Having packed out 80 or more pounds + an additional 20 to 30 lbs of camp gear (That is every edible ounce on a mature ram or billy minus bones) of boned out meat off a goat or sheep over several mountains or river drainages in the high country I can assure you that it is a character building experience of the highest caliber. You should try it some time you don't need to hunt just volunteer to be a packer for a sheep or goat hunting outfit. They have serious turn over and are always looking for packers for some odd reason?

Furthermore wasting game meat in Alaska and Canada (where the majority of sheep and goat hunting takes place)or anywhere else goat or sheep hunting occurs is a serious crime and will be punished heavily. You simply don't leave ANY edible meat in the field on a game animal in Alaska. ESPECIALLY not on a guided sheep or goat hunt where the outfitter will loose his license and pay a hefty fine and or do jail when, not if caught.

Two years ago I killed my goat on a solo hunt. I won't bore you with the details of the recovery other than it took place at above 13,000' altitude and it left me almost crippled for about 6 weeks afterward from the bruised tendons in my knees and ankles and the almost bone deep blister that developed on my right heel. Until you've hauled a combined 100+ lb load on your back on loose scree and boulders up and down 30 to 50 percent grades in the high country above the tree line it's impossible to understand just how grueling, painful and raw sheep and goat hunting actually is. In fact there are very few people who are mentally tough enough and physically fit enough to do a high country sheep or goat hunt and when you make it a solo hunt that narrows the pack to the tiniest portion of hunters who have the outdoor skill, ability, mindset and fitness to pull it off. Which is what makes a goat or a ram such an incredible trophy.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

In fact there are very few people who are mentally tough enough and physically fit enough to do a high country sheep or goat hunt and when you make it a solo hunt that narrows the pack to the tiniest portion of hunters who have the outdoor skill, ability, mindset and fitness to pull it off.

I have no doubt that this is true.
I think I could handle it mentally, but I'm nowhere near physically fit enough to tackle something like that.
If I had a few months to prepare I think I would jump at the opportunity to go on a guided hunt with packers packing out the animal. I wouldn't even attempt a solo hunt. I'd end up on the news with people out looking for me. That's probably the toughest hunting in the U.S.

 

[Edventures]

where I hunt deer ,the DNR held meetings did surveys and asked this question of the hunters and land owners in the area. We now have a state mandated 4 point rack on one side regulation. This basically says you cant shoot the 1 to 11/2 year old bucks. It also means more older wiser deer in the woods. I personally like going out and seeing the bigger deer with bigger antlers.
looking at at 160 / 170 class deer is a thrill . We harvest deer for the meat,
but the biggest antlers gets bragging rights for the year.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I too am both meat hunter and trophy hunter.
I'll usually put a couple of does in the freezer (we're allowed up to 6) and then start looking for a big buck. I'll pass on small basket racks because with the amount of does we're allowed to harvest, there's simply no sense in shooting them.
Now I'm meat first, so if we weren't allowed to shoot does, I would be more likely to shoot a small buck.
Here in Arkansas, its 3 points on one side to be legal unless the hunter is under 16 years old. Then they get a buck of choice each year.

 

[H&Hhunter]

That's probably the toughest hunting in the U.S.

Without a doubt, that and hunting bear or lion behind hounds in the high country can be tougher at times but is a tie for overall toughness.

 

[Mike1234567]

It makes my physically sick even reading that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with hunting, quite the opposite as hunting is the last and purest link to food chain we still have left. When someone kills for just the sake of killing, without taking the responsibility to make use of the game to his or her best ability, it's not hunting anymore.

Varmints aside, there's no excuse. Even with them and some game management or safety-related secondary gain kills (wolf, lynx, raccoon dog, mink...) it's good ethics and good practise to use whatever you can, be it hide, using the carcass as bait (when legal) or anything else you can think of.

To give your friends a probably undeserved benefit of a doubt, can you please elaborate about the waste, please?

I used the term "friends" a bit loosely. They're friends but not close friends... neighbors. I moved to a rural area about three years ago. I don't get out much anymore so I haven't made any close friends here... just friendly acquaintances.

I fully support hunting as I know it's generally far more humane than our meatpacking industry... if one is careful and skilled. I also understand the pleasure of the hunt and maybe even the excitement of the kill. But I don't understand the joy of needless killing.

To make things clear... the folks I mentioned seem to enjoy killing for the sake of killing. I've always thought that as strange behavior... maybe a bit sadistic, if not bordering on psychopathic. These guys kill an animal and let it rot. I guess I'll just never understand.

Trophy hunting? Why not... as long as the meat is harvested... at least for someone.

 

[oneounceload]

H&H, that was meant as especially true with those folks who you see in the magazine and not intended as a broad brush - sorry if you took it that way

 

[H&Hhunter]

oneounceload,

I can especially assure you that the guys in the magazine pictures are doing it on the up and up. Whether the guy in the picture with the horns is packing out the meat or someone else is, the meat was recovered. You simply don't leave sheep or goat meat in the field even if you got your picture taken for a magazine.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

^ One thing is for sure. They aren't out there by themselves. Somebody took the picture.

 

[Art Eatman]

"...the folks I mentioned seem to enjoy killing for the sake of killing."

As near as I can tell, that's a distinct minority.

"I've always thought that as strange behavior."

Me, I'd call it closer to "weird".

 

[H&Hhunter]

AP

Exactly right these are inevitably going to be guided hunts which means that the meat is going to be recovered. It's simply too risky to break the law then publicly advertise it, not mention unethical, and stupid. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how a guy comes to the conclusion that the meat from a sheep or goat was left in the field to rot from a picture of a guy with ram horns on sticking out of his pack in a magazine picture?

If you see a picture of a red sports car on a public road in a magazine is it fair to assume that the car was speeding?

 

[35 Whelen]

Speaking of pictures in magazines, the first time my then 71 year old Dad and I skinned and quartered out a large bull elk as it snowed, then loaded it on horses and made the 2 hour ride out in the dark in even more snow, it occurred to me "this is the stuff you never see in the glossy pages of hunting magazines".

35W

 

[H&Hhunter]

Ain't that the truth..^^^^^

 

[matrem]

Even on a typical successful whitetail hunt for most of us, our "shining/ photogentic" moment- sure isn't when the hard work's happening.

 

[splattergun]

In most cases, it does not take very much skill or effort to shoot the first legal critter to pass in front of your sights "just for meat". The way I see it, as long as I'm out there putting in the time and effort, I might as well try to get the biggest, proudest, most healthy and intelligent buck in that neck o' the woods. Therein lies the challenge.

I have shot meat bucks, I have shot trophy bucks. I ate both with relish, but the trophies are much more personally satisfying, and a quick glance at the wall brings back fond memories that the meat buck just doesn't bring to the table. So to speak.

Just my way.

 

[Mike1234567]

I dunno... now that I think about it, I think trophy hunting goes against the natural order of things. In nature, predators seek out the easiest targets... the sickest, oldest and youngest. As far as I know they never intentionally go after the strongest, most able of the herd. Therefore, the weak are weeded out... not the strong. Trophy hunting does the opposite... weeds out the strong leaving the weak to propagate the herds. Isn't it logical that this will weaken the species over time?

 

[matrem]

Well, Don't fret that.
Our society is "evolving" in the opposite direction.
It will all equal out in time.
It always does.

 

[Art Eatman]

Dunno, Mike. I've seen a fair number of videos of a pack of wolves working on what looks like a quite-healthy bull elk. Generally, circumstance: Deep snow, mostly, in the videos.

I've seen two really nice mule deer bucks, lion-killed. Bucks, generally being more solitary, are more easily sneaked up upon than a group of does and yearlings.

 

[Mike1234567]

Dunno, Mike. I've seen a fair number of videos of a pack of wolves working on what looks like a quite-healthy bull elk. Generally, circumstance: Deep snow, mostly, in the videos.

I've seen two really nice mule deer bucks, lion-killed. Bucks, generally being more solitary, are more easily sneaked up upon than a group of does and yearlings.

Could be, Art. I don't really know. All I can remember is what I've seen on nature TV shows and read here-and-there. I've no practical experience.

 

[Tony k]

Season length also plays a role in how people hunt

The hunting seasons are a little disapointing here in Oregon. You can get two deer, one elk, 1 cougar, 1 fall bear, 1 spring bear. The variety is great, but the problem with the elk and deer rifle seasons is that they are only 10 days long! That means for the average person you have two weekends per deer/elk season. That's why I don't pass up the first legal animal. If I was in a place where the seasons were several months long, yes, I'd be way more selective and try for a trophy animal.

Hey Mike 123456, it's too bad your impression of hunters is based on those people you described. Thrill-killing is kinda twisted. Wasting meat is unethical. I bet if you went out with most other hunters you'd get a much more favorable impression.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

I'm not bashing anyone for what they do re: hunting, but I would like to learn more about the perspective of the sport hunter.

Can't shoot does here, no elk to speak of to hunt in my area any more (wiped out by predators) so that leaves bucks. If I get one that looks nice on the wall, so much the better. But venison always trumps antlers. Always.

 

[Davek1977]

Me, I'd call it closer to "weird".

I'd call it what it is....criminal. I wouldn't hesitate to drop the dime on someone like that. Poachers masquerading as hunters are vile despicable human beings that only make it tougher for real hunters, both in terms of harvesting games, and also in the court of public approval. They serve no purpose, and I'd do what I could to rid my area of the type

 

[Davek1977]

Therefore, the weak are weeded out... not the strong. Trophy hunting does the opposite... weeds out the strong leaving the weak to propagate the herds. Isn't it logical that this will weaken the species over time?

No, thats not the case. By the time an animal has reached what most of us consider "trophy status" he has been breeding for a few years, spreading those "trophy" genes. A true trophy to many hunters is an old mature buck, one who is actually past his prime as far as fighting, breeding, etc go. These deer have little time left in the natural world regardless if shot or not. Even a buck cut down in his prime has already been breeding and spreading genes. How this would contribute to the weakening of the herd over time is beyond me. Too, if "non-trophy" animals are the only ones taken......if that is what you are implying should be done.....how do you ever begin to comprehend what that deer's potential is? How do you separate a 1.5 yr old buck that will someday score 170 B&C from a 1.5 yr old buck that will never begin to approach that size? A trophy buck isn't a trophy buck at birth...he looks like any other deer. Killing a trophy before he grows to trophy potential is still killing a trophy deer....but you have nothing to show for it in terms of a rack on the wall, and you'll never know it. Besides, if I'm going to eat the meat, which is central to this conversation, I want to eat healthy meat. By your view of things, I should be looking for a sickly animal of questionable quality to harvest, which again, just doesn't make sense to my way of thinking. If I'm going to kill a deer, I'm going to kill one that I am confident is healthy enough to consume, not a crippled diseased deer whose meat may or may not be even be safely edible

 

[hq]

Trophy hunting does the opposite... weeds out the strong leaving the weak to propagate the herds. Isn't it logical that this will weaken the species over time?

Not really. What constitutes a 'desirable' trophy often also means that the animal is evolutionally past its prime or at it, with a number of rivals ready to take over. Predators take whatever they can or have opportunity to take. Generally speaking, studies have been unable to find a significant effect caused by hunting, mainly because the sheer number of animals killed by predators is in several multiples of those killed by hunters. For example, an adult male lynx (50-60lb eurasian Lynx lynx rather than american Lynx rufus, speaking from my geographical point of view) can and often will kill up to one hundred whitetail fawns and does every year, and according to official numbers there are approximately 70-100 of them just in the area I mainly hunt.

Facts like that may give you some perspective. And I consider myself being a part of the same food chain too, trophy-quality antlers are an occasional bonus and I sometimes find myself selling a doe or two to guys who have spent their weekends chasing monster bucks and ignoring the primary purpose, venison.

However, I'm still slightly baffled. At one point you were concerned about the waste, ie. shooting animals and leaving them to rot. Now your point has shifted to trophy hunting. You described yourself a shooter and not a hunter so all kinds of questions are very understandable, but I'd like to know if there's still something that concerns you about the whole concept of hunting and principles involved.

Every now and then when we talk about hunting with my friends people may hear one or two things in our conversation, make assumptions based on their own misconceptions because things that are a given (moral and ethics, good hunting practise) aren't particularly mentioned, and may well think we're a bunch of trigger-happy bambi butchers. I'm not implying that something like that has happened to you in regard to your neighbors, but have you considered that it might be a possibility?