Hunting Rifles Vs. Military Rifles...

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I recently took training for certification as a NRA Range Safety Officer. There was one multiple choice question, that I remember well, about what is the most important factor for safe range operations: The right answer was “attitude”.

I think that could be also applied to hunting partners.
 
Well, here's the SKS I shot the deer with. I dressed it up to look more acceptable. Actually, it just plain works better for me with a scope and that stupid bayonet lug cut off (grabs brush and is annoying). It was a fun project, but a bit of a waste of money if you really want my opinion. LOL The scope is as far forward as I can get it and it still needs to move a little more, doe and a sporting rifle does. ANY military gun is a compromise unless you do a LOT of cutting and hacking on 'em and that's not cost effective considering what gunsmithing runs now days. Want it done right, get a new Savage 110 and save some money. Still a fun range gun, though, and useful as a loaner if nothin' else.

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woof, serious question.

The last time I was actually hunting was for wild pig. I took my HK91 with a 5 round magazine. I chose it because it was .308 (I was unsure if .223 would be a large enough round for the job) and because the 91 is a rifle I have a great deal of familiarity with (more so than any hunting rifle I could have borrowed for the occassion). I did NOT take an original G3 because I didn't feel like taking a Form 4 riifle out of state, I'm pretty certain NFA rifles aren't legal for hunting and I generally don't take a $18k rifle out in the sticks, mud and rain.

Does this make me one of your "Rambos"? And if so, would my selection of a more traditional appearing HK SL7 make me not or Rambo?
 
Steyr -- I already asked the same question: if all EBR owners are just wannabees who wish they could have a full auto but instead they own toy copies, how do you explain folks like me that have owned both the title I and title II variants of the same firearm at the same time? My question was ignored. It doesn't surprise me, woof has stated his opinion, which he entirely entitled to. It's just sad that it's based on a misinterpretation of fact. Of course from the sound of it, I'd guess he's not too familiar with ownership of NFA items anyway.
 
You're right, for BIG hogs, the .223 is totally inadequate. I'm jut not into mall ninja guns. Can't see why I should be, either, since I mainly like rifles for hunting because I like hunting. Heck, I hunt with pistols and revolvers and even have a Hawken I haven't shot anything with, yet. It's cool, though, with one shot and a 385 grain minie ball and a 50 caliber bore. :D I'm a hunter and rifles are just the tools of the trade. Milsurps interest me, but if I had 18 grand, I'd either buy a new goldwing with it or if I had to buy a gun with it, it'd be a nice side lock side by side shotgun. I'm a real side by side lover, though I can't afford a nice one nor would I take it hunting, much.

I really have no stereotypical category for a guy that would pay 18 grand for a milsurp. :rolleyes: I bet I couldn't afford the ammo it'd eat and I'm more of a 1 MOA one shot one kill kinda guy, anyway. My nads don't grow with full auto fire.
 
I hope you don't meet me this hunting season. I will be wearing a ghillie suit and using a scoped semiauto rifle with a bipod and pistol grip. I wouldn't want you to wet your pants over it. Am I playing "assault force Rambo sniper commando man" simply because I refuse to pay $300 for brand name camo when a ghillie suit is such a better alternative? Am I a lunatic for wanting to lie still for hours waiting for a deer instead of sitting up in a tree with a cup of coffee and a magazine waiting for a deer to walk by(seen it done).
 
MCgunner

You're right, for BIG hogs, the .223 is totally inadequate. I'm jut not into mall ninja guns. Can't see why I should be, either, since I mainly like rifles for hunting because I like hunting. Heck, I hunt with pistols and revolvers and even have a Hawken I haven't shot anything with, yet. It's cool, though, with one shot and a 385 grain minie ball and a 50 caliber bore. I'm a hunter and rifles are just the tools of the trade. Milsurps interest me, but if I had 18 grand, I'd either buy a new goldwing with it or if I had to buy a gun with it, it'd be a nice side lock side by side shotgun. I'm a real side by side lover, though I can't afford a nice one nor would I take it hunting, much.

I really have no stereotypical category for a guy that would pay 18 grand for a milsurp. I bet I couldn't afford the ammo it'd eat and I'm more of a 1 MOA one shot one kill kinda guy, anyway. My nads don't grow with full auto fire.

Well I've seen hunters (my Dad for instance) spend just as much on their hunting rifles. Skeet shooters with Perazzis aren't going cheap either.

But what makes you think a guy who owns NFA stuff can't shoot 1MOA? I don't own Rem 700PSS, Steyr SSG and Sako rifles because I'm gonna "spray and pray."

And I don't buy NFA stuff because it does anything special for my testicles. I buy it because I can. My Dad bought a bunch of civil war era Sharps Rifles. When he did all I could think of was how many NFA items he could have gotten for the money. But they make him happy and it's his money. He isn't trying to prove anything to anyone and I don't think they do a damn thing for his testicles.

And it may interest you to know my most expensive firearms aren't even NFA. I think my Luftwaffe Drilling holds the record for being the most valuable in my collection. But man does that open a can of worms, technically a hunting firearm it is actually military with the designation M30 survival drilling. I'd take it to the skeet range or hunting but I wouldn't want to be branded a "Rambo."

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Don't know if you're talkin' to me or not, but if I meet you this season, I'll say hi. It'll likely be at the duck marsh, because I don't do public deer hunting. Too many nuts. Not Rambos, just nuts. So, if you're on my land, I'll likely meet you with the game warden or the sheriff. And, have a good day. :D
 
MCgunner said:
My nads don't grow with full auto fire.

Man, that sounds like something straight out of the anti-gunner propaganda. "Gun owners are only trying to make up for something" sort of knee-jerk crap.

It's interesting the amount of "bigotry" in the gun world.

"Fudds" don't like "Rambo". "Rambo" doesn't like guys who can afford NFA items.

I currently don't own a full-auto, I sold my subgun when I was a grad student. Now that I'm a "recovering" grad student, I really want one again.

Why? Well, because I'm pretty handy with a subgun. I enjoy shooting in subgun competitions, and honestly that's cheaper than my other competitive love, rally racing.

But of course, the "Fudds" won't even acknowledge that anyone should have the right to own full auto, and the "Rambos" will scoff because they can't afford one. What a world. "Gun owners of America, unite! Then run off in different camps based on what you own and snipe at each other!"
 
Oh, for 18 grand, it should outshoot my Remingtons and Savage. Be embarrassing if a 200 dollar gun out shot it. BUT, of the guns I could afford that are milsurps like my SKSs, well, a 200 dollar milsurp will struggle to shoot as well as my sporting rifles. It can be done, just ain't as easy. Swedish mausers have a good accuracy rep, for instance. But, I'll stck with my "remchesters" on my budget, thanks. I ain't a wealthy man. nothin' wrong with being rich, it just never happened to me. You're talkin' to a guy that rides motorcycles to go hunting to save gas at 3 bucks a gallon.
 
I've got a friend with a silenced Cobray select fire. I've fired it, don't get nothin' out of it. And, I couldn't afford to feed it, anyway.

Just because a gun is worthless, doesn't mean I believe it should be illegal. I fully support the second amendment. Just ain't into class three stuff.
 
BTW, my uncle brought a Steyr (or was it a Sauer? Cant remember.) Drilling back from Germany. It was in 16 gauge with an 8x57JR rifle barrel, neat gun. My cousin has it now, if he hasn't hocked it. That would be a shame. He also had a P08 in a nazi holster with spare mag that was neat as hell.
 
Was almost certainly a JP Sauer (Steyr is Austrian and to the best of my knowledge never produced a Drilling) in if it was a M30 military drilling I hope he hocked it for something really, really, really good.

I've seen them for for $25,000-40,000 at auction.
 
woof said:
Some of you people are having a very hard time accepting a differing point of view, but most are not.

That is fairly common on internet forums in general. Gun forums in particular tend to follow a certain train of thought and there are plenty of members that just love to jump people that think differently than them. You have to learn to just ignore them. They are the type of people that believe there is only one way to think, feel, vote, or do something and that is their way.

You have your opinion and you aren't hurting anyone by having it. I do not share your views because my experiences have been different than your own. This is fine. Just keep shooting.
 
Was almost certainly a JP Sauer (Steyr is Austrian and to the best of my knowledge never produced a Drilling) in if it was a M30 military drilling I hope he hocked it for something really, really, really good.

I've seen them for for $25,000-40,000 at auction.

Yeppers, JP Sauer. That's the one, remember now. I saw one like it at a gun show about 1980 was going for around 5K then, I was pretty amazed, but I knew it was a neat gun. When my uncle died, I went next door and got all his guns out of the house (he lived alone) until my cousin could come get 'em. I took that drilling out to the woods. He had a box of norma 8x57JR and I had some 16 gauge shells. My cousin didn't get any loaded ammo with the gun, LOL! Man, that thing was neat. You flipped what is normally a safety on the tang (the safety was odd, off on the left side of the receiver) and a rifle sight flipped up on the rib to put the rear trigger in rifle mode. Dang, I wish I'd have inherited that thing. My cousin isn't a shooter, an accountant, and all he sees is dollars when he looks at something like that. I'm sure it's gone now.

My uncle had an old single shot 16, full choke, 30" barrel. It was beat up, broken ejector. He gave it to me to hunt geese with. I still have it. After he gave it to me, I had a good gunsmith make an ejector for it. I refinished the stock and tried to cold blue the barrel, but you know how that went, LOL! That thing is tight, shoots good, practically worthless, but it's priceless for its memories to me.
 
I'm sure many of the same criticisms were leveled at hunters who first chose to use military-style bolt-action repeaters in the field instead of then-traditional hunting weapons. Those military rifles, in military calibers like .30-06 Springfield and derivatives, eventually became the dominant style of hunting rifle. To the extent, in fact, that many people who use them today don't realize that a Remington M700 or Winchester Model 70 bolt rifle in .30-06 Springfield is JUST as much a military-style rifle as an AR-15 or a non-automatic civilian AK.

I dare say that most hunters who use Winchester Model 70's in .30-06 don't own them because they want to look like a Vietnam-era sniper, but because they like it as a rifle rather than as a fashion accessory. Many Gen-X-and-younger shooters feel the same way about rifles with more modern styling; I am 37 and own a civilian AK not because I want to "look" a certain way (dude, I look like a college English professor), but rather because I feel it is one of the best self-loading rifles on this planet. Ditto for the AR-15 platform. I certainly have no problem with people who don't like such rifles, but I do politely object to being stereotyped as a "Rambo wannabe" because I prefer such guns to Mauser-style bolt-actions.

FWIW, Remington just launched a new line of hunting rifles based on the AR-15 design (the Remington R15, and I suspect versions in deer calibers are not far off), an increasing number of hunting shotguns are coming from the factory with M4-style adjustable stocks, etc. Bolt rifles will not go away any more than lever-action .30-30's have, but expect to see more rifles with protruding handgrips in the field.

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As Field and Stream's David E. Petzal, who historically has been no friend of "black rifles," recently pointed out:

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/10/a-further-thoug.html

We've been Bolt-Action Nation for so long that we forget we were once Lever-Action Nation, and that what converted us was millions of young men being introduced to the 1903 Springfield, courtesy of the U.S. Army and the United States Marines.

As long as it goes bang, let us think kind thoughts about it.

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FWIW, the ratio of hunters to gun owners at large currently stands at around 1 in 5, and falling. If hunting is to avoid becoming completely gentrified, methinks hunters need to reach out and get more shooters interested in hunting, rather than shunning them because their guns don't look like Mauser derivatives.
 
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Actually, as I heard the story on the history channel a while back, the military had no sniper hardware at the beginning of the Vietnam conflict. They figured out real quick they needed snipers and went to Manila or somewhere to a large sporting goods store and bought a bunch of Remingtons, stuck Redfield scopes on 'em, and gave 'em to the best shots. :D. So, actually, the sporting rifle BECAME the military rifle. Kind of a neat twist, I thought.

Actually, turn of the century, i'm thinking smokeless powder and bolt action Mausers were so much more accurate and had so much more range than anything that had come before, and just had so many more advantages over the old black powder guns, that everyone that hunted probably tripped over themselves in an effort to get one. I highly doubt it was anything like today's black gun thing with black gun enthusiasts trying to justify the weapons by hunting with them and what they call "fudds" chastising the black gun guys for using a putter to drive with. But, whatever floats your boat. I just told ya what my first impressions are when I meet a guy so into black guns he's hunting with one. It may or may not be the case, for sure, and I know there are a lot of good platforms out there that have adequate power and accuracy to hunt with. I really can't understand the fervor of hunting with 'em. I'm more a single shot guy. I hunt with a Contender pistol a lot, about 180 degrees from an AR. My rifles are rather affordable bolt guns that are accurate without breaking the bank. I killed my first deer in 1963 with a Remington M722 in .257 Roberts. I hunted deer only with that gun right up until about 1991 when I bought a 7 mag, got magnumitis. I got over that, won a rifle at a gun show, a 700 Remington in .25-06 which I traded for my Remington M7 in .308 which I had been drooling over since it came out. I never even considered an AR or AK or FAL or whatever for hunting, those were toys, still are to me. That's just my mindset, sorry if you disagree, but it's a free world and I suspect I, the fudd, am very much the norm because of the hunting I've done in public areas and on leases with lots of hunters, I cannot recall EVER seeing anyone with a black rifle in camp our out hunting. I've seen more black powder, more lever guns, and such. I remember one guy who's autoloader, a Remington 740, broke and I loaned him my .257 and he killed a deer with it. I had my 7 mag at the time and took the .257 as a back up. I remember another guy with an OLD remington, M8? It's the one that the barrel moved with the action and I think it was in .351 or some such. Maybe it was a .35 Remington, can't remember for sure. That was a weird rifle to run into on the deer camp, LOL.

Nope, I think FUDDS are normal and black rifle guys are the exception, probably still, frankly, except maybe on gun boards.
 
I've fired both full auto and burst assault rifles and their semi-auto cousins and for defensive purposes, the semi-auto isn't at a serious disadvantage. Sure, I'd rather have a happy switch on my rifles, but US military doctrine has stressed semi-auto fire for decades now and our military still manages to fight very effectively. The Brits won the Falklands War using semi-auto FAL's against an enemy armed with full auto FAL's and they won it pretty handily. Semi-auto rifles can be just as effective as the full auto rifles they are derived from.

Now for hunting, I've got to agree with MCgunner. For purposes of putting meat on the table, my Remington 700 in 30-06 does everything my semi-autos do and it does it better. It's more accurate, more powerful, lighter, better balanced and I don't find fast followup shots to be an issue since I don't have anyone shooting back at me and I know how to cycle the bolt pretty darn quick.

I'm sure there are a few situations where the semi is better however. Several years ago I went bear hunting on Rainier Timber Company land and we had earlier found a line of feed barrels that they had been using to feed the bears in an effort to keep them away from their saplings. They had hidden the barrels about 10 yards off the logging road in heavy brush about every 400 yards or so. You literally couldn't see for more than 15 or 20 yards tops and you had to climb into that thick stuff with all kinds of fresh bear sign. For that particular hunt I used an AK and having a short, handy, ultra-reliable, semi-auto sure was nice. If I were hunting pigs in Texas I'd probably use a military style rifle for that too.
 
Well, in truth, the American hunter in the early 20th century viewed the bolt-action with distrust. Most used lever-actions. It wasn't until doughboys came back from WWI did faith in turn-bolts arise.

Ash
 
Yeah, I think I read that somewhere ,too, about the popularity of the bolt gun coming after WW1 They had the 1895 in .30-06 among other big calibers. IIRC TR was sorta partial to the 405 Winchester. Hey, but the Henry rifle was the assault weapon of the Civil war, ya know. And, ask Custer what he thinks of sporting weapons. :D

Far as hogs go, I've hunted hogs a lot and always with my Remington M7. I've never really been concerned about a charging hog. I do sometimes carry a sidearm in case I have to blood trail one back in the thick stuff. A revolver handles better in tight quarters than a rifle and I have full faith in my .45 Colt blackhawk to stop anything that walks in Texas. I used to carry a hot handload in my 1911 when I hunted with a fellow using his dogs. The dogs would grab 'em by the ears and you'd stick it in the throat and cut the carotid. He didn't wanna be shootin' around his dogs for obvious reasons, but I took the .45 for just in case. I know a guy that got ripped open by a hog hunting 'em with dogs. It's when I was doing this that I bought my .45 Colt, more horsepower for the really big ones. I'd rather have one 300 grain pill at 1200 fps, than 8 200 grain pills at 1100 fps. :D By the second or third round, I'd be laid open if I didn't get a head hit, I mean, with a really big hog. Those things can get HUGE.
 
The Numbers Aren't With you...

Nope, I think FUDDS are normal and black rifle guys are the exception, probably still, frankly, except maybe on gun boards.

McG - 80 million gun owners (and rising), and 14 million hunters - the numbers don't support you on this one.

And unless we start to recruit more shooters into hunting, out hunting numbers will continue to fall.

Michael
 
that everyone that hunted probably tripped over themselves in an effort to get one.
Maybe with the first Mausers... but, from what I've heard, bring-backs from WWI, maybe WWII were looked upon with disdain by hunters, due to their military heritage, IIRC. There was a thread on that subject here or at TFL at one time or other.
 
I was talking about all of those that brand me as a Rambo type. While I don't take nicely to trespassers on the property and have been known to scare a few of the dirt bikers by rising out of the ground I shoot deer one shot at a time. I just get tired of people thinking the 2ndA is all about hunting. I can carry whatever I want on my property. I might have to go hunting with a cannon next year just to make my point. Wonder how much buckshot I can fit into a ten pounder?
 
hunt with anything.
if I am hungry I will hunt with a stick. but I will make a clean kill.
my stick will be sharp and the thrust true. adapt and survive.
I think a full blown ass, rifle is overkill. just what is it that you are hunting for?
If you are afraid of someone kicking your door open then go with a 12 gauge so you don't kill the neighbors.
just be senseable about what,when and where you shoot.
I see a rifle as a tool. you don't lite a blow torch when you just need a wrench "do you"?
 
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