hybrid holster failure - ND

[taliv]

in one large FB group with 15k+ members, there was a spirited debate about hybrid holsters failing causing NDs. I didn't read the whole thing because reading threads of FB exceeds my tolerance for poor formatting decisions by a fair margin, but several members claim to have experienced it, and one today says it happened to him today. no ND, but he says the holster was fine yesterday and failed today in such a way that when inserting the pistol, the trigger contacts the backing (not the kydex front) that has somehow gotten saggy despite a steel insert to keep it stiff. He claims the holster is 5 years old and he never had a problem with it til today.

a significant portion of the group seem to believe ALL hybrid style holsters WILL fail at some point and we should all immediately cease using them. pretty much how i feel about serpas.

I have had a minotaur for my daily carry since i hung up my milt sparks summer special / 1911 many years ago. i've been looking at this holster for a while and for the life of me can't figure out what danger others are seeing. granted, my holster is quite a bit different than some of the models they discussed. it doesn't have a steel backing, and in fact, has soft leather center with stiff leather around the sides.
nevertheless, pretty much the only thing that scares me about guns is reholstering IWB and i'm pretty dang careful about it.

are these things ticking time bombs? anyone familiar with these debates? have pictures of one that failed? personal experience?

 

[JTQ]

I consider most hybrids to be bad designs, as most have overly large sweat shields.

However, this

are these things ticking time bombs? anyone familiar with these debates? have pictures of one that failed? personal experience?

is probably driven by Greg Ellifritz who makes some very good points in several articles, here's one.

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/features-to-avoid-when-buying-an-iwb-holster

...somehow gotten saggy despite a steel insert to keep it stiff.

While I don't care for the category in general, and don't follow them that much, and there certainly may be a hybrid holster with a steel insert, I'm not aware of any that have that feature.

 

[JTQ]

Regarding the giant sweat shields, the late Todd L. Green

http://pistol-training.com/archives/9692

 

[JTQ]

a significant portion of the group seem to believe ALL hybrid style holsters WILL fail at some point and we should all immediately cease using them.

One failing that often occurs with hybrids is the kydex at the attachment point to the leather/nylon/etc. backer cracks.

While over time this certainly can happen to any kydex, most of these issues are a result of operator error.

The issue is the user wearing the holster at 3:00 rather than closer to 4:00 where these holsters are designed to be worn. The leather/whatever backer material is flexible and will bend, but the kydex is not, and won't bend.

If worn at 4:00, generally you'll have a flat spot on your body large enough to keep the holster from bending/trying to bend. Worn at 3:00, unless you are extremely heavy, the holster wraps around the point of your hip and will eventually fail at the kydex connection points.

 

[Riomouse911]

I've never used a hybrid, mine are all leather or all synthetic. I can see where the two worlds collide the attachment points may wear over time.

I like the looks of some of the offerings from Crossbreed, but I haven't ever had a desire to buy one.

Stay safe.

 

[taliv]

thanks! yes activeresponsetraining was mentioned. the explanations in those links make a lot more sense. especially if they're saying the sweat shield gets floppy and can lay over into the trigger. it's very short and stiff on mine so i don't see it happening any time soon, but definitely something to keep an eye on.

 

[JTQ]

Note your Minotaur has a much thicker, and probably stiffer backer than the typical hybrids that are popular these days.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hybrids like the Tucker GunLeather "the answer" holster?
https://tuckergunleather.com/the-answer-holster/

because... no. That' holster will be fine for the life of the user (probably).

He's my take:
crappy holsters, of all materials, can cause problems.

Stiff leather has been doing the job (safely) for many years.

Sounds like a much-ado-bout-nothin' to me...

I don't use my 1 hybrid holster much anymore, other methods seem to work better for me, but I don't see the problem.

 

[JTQ]

Stiff leather has been doing the job (safely) for many years.

Sounds like a much-ado-bout-nothin' to me...

The issue is that stiff leather is not the material of choice for many current production hybrid backers. There has been a large increase in the number of larger and larger, spongy nylon backers as folks prioritize comfort over all else.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

The issue is that stiff leather is not the material of choice for many current production hybrid backers. There has been a large increase in the number of larger and larger, spongy nylon backers as folks prioritize comfort over all else.

ahhhhh...

I see now. people are selecting, on purpose, the soft sided backs for comfort reasons.

Makes sense now. Thanks for helping me along here LOL

 

[taliv]

That’s what I didn’t get too. My Minotaur is almost as thick and stiff as my milt sparks

 

[Terry G]

I don't use kydex. I bought a kydex holster with a matching magazine holder foe a specific Glock 21. Put the gun and two Glock magazines in the holster and pouch and couldn't get them out. I don't mean hard to get out, I mean COULDN'T get them out. I let the rig sit over night thinking it would help. It didn't. I got them out with much tugging and swearing. I tried a kydex holster for my Colt MKIV and noticed excessive holster wear. Turns out kydex will take the finish off faster than leather. Nylon for hiking around in the woods and custom leather for CCW. Nice thing about nylon is the holster's are inexpensive and don't wear the finish off your guns. e..b..leather works for custom leather.. .

 

[Obturation]

I could see it happening but it's got to be a continued improper bending of the sweat shield or some kind of over flexing.

larger and larger, spongy nylon backers

They're horrible, n82 (nate squared) comes to mind.

a hybrid holster with a steel insert, I'm not aware of any that have that feature.

Some Alien gear holsters have this "feature" , conceals like you've got a 3 ring binder in your pants. I tried hard to like it, but I couldn't .

Hybrids like the Tucker GunLeather "the answer" holster?
https://tuckergunleather.com/the-answer-holster/

Just looked at that one. Looks nice, may try it out.



I've had this galco king tuk since around 2013, it is comfortable and does conceal well. No signs of floppy back but the plastic (I doubt it's kydex) has begun to crack at the attachment - always worn @ 4:00

ETA: I have discontinued use of this holster because of the crack.

 

[JTQ]

Nylon for hiking around in the woods and custom leather for CCW. Nice thing about nylon is the holster's are inexpensive and don't wear the finish off your guns. e..b..leather works for custom leather.. .

Nylon pretty much amplifies the problems found with some of these hybrids, as you have soft material all around the gun. I suppose I could live with a nylon holster for a revolver for some short period of time until I could get a better holster, I'd not choose a nylon holster for non-manual safety equipped striker fired gun.

 

[JTQ]

The Tucker "Answer" is the original hybrid. One reason some folks aren't aware of it is because it costs $138. The reason it costs $138 is because it uses a couple of stiff layers of leather for the backer, and is in general a very solid holster.

Conversely, the typical hybrid shopper is looking for a $50 holster, and most rank comfort above access and retention.

 

[Zerodefect]

I don't use kydex. I bought a kydex holster with a matching magazine holder foe a specific Glock 21. Put the gun and two Glock magazines in the holster and pouch and couldn't get them out. I don't mean hard to get out, I mean COULDN'T get them out. I let the rig sit over night thinking it would help. It didn't. I got them out with much tugging and swearing. I tried a kydex holster for my Colt MKIV and noticed excessive holster wear. Turns out kydex will take the finish off faster than leather. Nylon for hiking around in the woods and custom leather for CCW. Nice thing about nylon is the holster's are inexpensive and don't wear the finish off your guns. e..b..leather works for custom leather.. .

Holster is just crappy. That's not the fault of kydex. Generally I heat a few parts of a Ravens OWB holster for easier draws, less retention.

Kydex will wear a bit quicker, but leather wears as well, and rusts.

I love my Cossbreed holsters. But I wear them properly at 5:30, never 3:00. Also, I never reholster into them. Don't play around with your carry pistol and you won't have issues. Draw practice is strictly dryfire with that holster. If I need to draw for whatever, and reholster all amped up, I can lock the slide back and then holster.

 

[Zendude]

I wonder how many people use holsters that have just been worn out. Some holsters last longer than others, but the user should inspect their holsters and not hesitate to replace it when it’s time.

 

[taliv]

I love my Cossbreed holsters. But I wear them properly at 5:30, never 3:00. Also, I never reholster into them. Don't play around with your carry pistol and you won't have issues. Draw practice is strictly dryfire with that holster. If I need to draw for whatever, and reholster all amped up, I can lock the slide back and then holster.

i've shot many IDPA matches with mine. and carbine classes where we did carbine/pistol transitions. i pay a lot of attention when reholstering, but you've got to be able to do it.

 

[Zerodefect]

Carbine pistol transitions, I'll be using a Ravens OWB. Glock drops right in. I have the holster tuned so that the force to reholster, is less than required to pull the trigger. It's just a touch more force than gravity alone.

If I have the option, I prefer a 1911 for carbine classes or informal 3 gun shoots. Formal 3 gun events don't reholster anymore. Pistol is last, or bucket dropped.

With my IDPA G23.3, I've tested that holster with a sharpie cap in the trigger guard. It's obvious that something is wrong before bang, since the usual amount of tiny force, or gravity alone, doesn't click it home. Same experiment with my G34.4 though, nope, Glockleg.

Real world, maybe I could get stuck with my Crossbreed, and transition to the carbine, but heck, I'd rather just toss the pistol, than reholster into my Crossbreed IWB. I've never had a hint that my IWB was dragging on the trigger ever, in dryfire practice, so I know it's good to go. Still a bad idea though.

 

[bassjam]

The most comfortable holsters I've worn are from Stealthgear. They're a hybrid with a kydex outer shell and the inside is a laminate of a heavy duty polymer mesh against the firearm to give rigidity and a padded "cloth" to be comfortable against your skin. Even then, I considered these holsters "wear" item that isn't going to last forever and needs to be regularly inspected.

I really struggle to wear any 100% kydex holster for any length of time, the hard points create pressure points and the rough plastic rubs me raw. And sure, I like a quality leather holster but sometimes you just can't find one made for your gun. I'm in that boat right now, my 3" K6s just isn't popular enough and I'm stuck with a kydex holster. I'm going to try to stick some leather on the inside to create a hybrid of sorts in the hopes it increases comfort.

 

[JTQ]

I'm going to try to stick some leather on the inside to create a hybrid of sorts in the hopes it increases comfort.

Comp-Tac has sold moleskin for years for folks to stick to their IWB holsters

https://comp-tac.com/moleskin-to-improve-holster-comfort-comp-tac/

You can also just buy it at the drug store.

 

[bassjam]

Comp-Tac has sold moleskin for years for folks to stick to their IWB holsters

https://comp-tac.com/moleskin-to-improve-holster-comfort-comp-tac/

You can also just buy it at the drug store.

I never thought of moleskin! I should have, I used enough of that in my Scouting days for blisters. My 3M backed leather came in the mail today, I've already "modified" the holster with it.

 

[bdickens]

in one large FB group with 15k+ members, there was a spirited debate about hybrid holsters failing causing NDs. I didn't read the whole thing because reading threads of FB exceeds my tolerance for poor formatting decisions by a fair margin, but several members claim to have experienced it, and one today says it happened to him today. no ND, but he says the holster was fine yesterday and failed today in such a way that when inserting the pistol, the trigger contacts the backing (not the kydex front) that has somehow gotten saggy despite a steel insert to keep it stiff. He claims the holster is 5 years old and he never had a problem with it til today.

a significant portion of the group seem to believe ALL hybrid style holsters WILL fail at some point and we should all immediately cease using them. pretty much how i feel about serpas.

I have had a minotaur for my daily carry since i hung up my milt sparks summer special / 1911 many years ago. i've been looking at this holster for a while and for the life of me can't figure out what danger others are seeing. granted, my holster is quite a bit different than some of the models they discussed. it doesn't have a steel backing, and in fact, has soft leather center with stiff leather around the sides.
nevertheless, pretty much the only thing that scares me about guns is reholstering IWB and i'm pretty dang careful about it.

are these things ticking time bombs? anyone familiar with these debates? have pictures of one that failed? personal experience?

Several things come to mind:

Unsubstantiated anecdotes on Facebook are almost as reliable and accurate as what passes for news media these days.

Equipment failure would in fact properly come under the description of accidental rather than negligent discharge.

Failure such as described seems highly unlikely, given the design of such hybrid holsters. Just look at the thing.

All this begs the question that seems painfully obvious to me: shouldn't we be frequently inspecting our gear to ensure that it is in serviceable condition prior to use? And repairing/ replacing it if found to be otherwise?

 

[Craig_AR]

Another holster thread on THR led me to look at the Tucker Answer, but was disappointed they do not make it for my M&P9 2.0. However, they showed me the successor design Deep Carry DC-1, which is available for a much longer list of guns and also can be use IWB or OWB by changing the clips. Once I got it adjusted for proper grip access, it has worked well for me for the two months I've been wearing it. I'm currently putting at 3 OC, but need to test it more at 4.
I usually practice draws from concealed 4 or 5 times each morning (using a blue gun) when I put it on in the morning, and that has helped get used to it.

 

[Skylerbone]

I know it’s been a few weeks but I was ordering a (leather) holster today when I came across the thread and now I have to ask @taliv why did you retire the Milt Sparks?