hypothetical CCW question

[Prince Yamato]

In many states, the law forbids CCW if you are in a church. Well, what if you are the priest, pastor, or bishop of your particular church or cathedral? Can you not carry in your own church?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Here in OH the CHL law requires a vote by the facilities Board of Directors or other similar body to allow anybody to carry....

I believe that it's a Constitutional violation myself....

'Course there are a lot of congregations that wouldn't lose it if asked. (I'm not a minister but) it's too bad mine would....

YMMV may vary by state....

Regards

 

[AmbulanceDriver]

Fortunate

Here in Oregon, we're allowed to carry in churches. Actually, can carry pretty much anywhere except courts and a few other places (secure parts of airport, etc).

I *ALWAYS* carry at church. No one knows (it's concealed, remember?) except for a select few people (gf, couple of very close friends).

And this is one of the reasons that I carry:

http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/116184391571180.xml?oregonian?lcg&coll=7

» More From The Oregonian

Man sets pews on fire during services
Salem - Parishioners at Peoples Church tackle the suspect and quickly put out the flames; two are hurt
Thursday, October 26, 2006
ELIZABETH SUH and DAVID AUSTIN

A man burst into a Salem church in the middle of prayer services Wednesday night, dumped gasoline on a half-dozen pews and lit a fire before parishioners tackled him.

Two older women were slightly burned during the incident, but churchgoers quickly doused the flames, authorities said. His identity was not released.

Deputy Kevin Rau, a spokesman for the Marion County Sheriff's Office, said the incident occurred shortly after 7 p.m. at the Peoples Church, 4500 Lancaster Drive NE, in the Hayesville neighborhood.

The man took a cab to the church, and when he arrived, he threatened the driver with a knife, slightly cutting him, police said.

The man walked into the sanctuary and began pouring liquid from a gas can onto rows of pews. He ignited the pews as he walked along, and the fire spread quickly.

Sam Miller, assistant to the church pastor, was standing at the front of the building when the man walked in. He said the man was pouring a liquid from a 1-gallon can that was igniting as it hit the pews and the floor.

Within moments, parishioners had tackled the man and doused the flames. Miller and others walked him out of the building, and the man babbled incoherently, Miller said.

"I don't think he knew why he did it," Miller said. "We don't believe it was an act against the church or against the people. It was a deranged man."

Two women in their 70s were injured, said Senior Pastor Scott Erickson. One was taken to Salem Hospital for observation because of her age, he said.

Erickson identified the women as Arlene Anderson and Betty Lister, both of the Salem area. He said Anderson received second- and third-degree burns on her back and slight burns on her head. Lister declined to be taken to the hospital.

The church has existed for 55 years. Erickson and his wife, Bonnie, now lead it and have been with the church for about seven years, the pastor said.

Erickson said he and his wife had just returned to Salem from a missionary trip to Siberia. They weren't at the church during the incident but were stunned about what happened.

He said he wasn't sure why someone would want to harm the church or its parishioners. Until now, the most serious event in the time he's been there has been graffiti sprayed on a sign a few months ago.

Firefighters and police detectives continued to investigate the scene into the night. Witnesses were taken to another building to be interviewed by police.

More than 2,000 people attend the church, Erickson said.

Wednesday nights are an active time at the church, which features children's services, youth ministries and other programs.

"This is all very upsetting," Erickson said. "This won't deter us from having services. We'll go on, and we can assure everyone that they are safe here."

David Austin: 503-294-5910; [email protected]

 

[RobXD9]

Church Carry Prohibited - A Wonderful Contradiction

That's always thrown me how you can prohibit a 2nd Amendment right, by violating a 1st Amendment right.

"Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishment of religion."

The courts have ruled over and over about the seperation of church and state.

Yes somehow our state legislators believe they can regulate certain activities in a church.

Doesn't add up.

The first well funded person who gets arrested for this, gets the laws thrown out in court. (Don't want to be the test case) But for the record, unless a church was posted, I would carry at a church without question.

Robert

 

[TexasRifleman]

Dunno, we can carry in Church in Texas.

After the Wedgewood church shooting in 1999, it's clear that churches need members to carry.

That church now has armed security made up of CHL holders/parishioners during all services.

 

[JimmyN]

In Virginia it's not defined very well.

§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

So what is "good and sufficient" reason? It would seem that self defense would be a good and sufficient reason. And it wouldn't apply to church bazaars, fairs, or other get togethers as they are not being held for "religious purposes".

It would seem the only purpose would be to restrict someone from wearing all their "tacticool" gear on Easter Sunday to impress the membership. But for some individuals even that would be good and sufficient reason.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

In many states, the law forbids CCW if you are in a church. Well, what if you are the priest, pastor, or bishop of your particular church or cathedral? Can you not carry in your own church?

Hypothetical questions generally get hypothetical answers.

Hypothetically, it would depend on the law of the state involved. If the law simply prohibited carry in churches, then ... no, the pastor could not carry in his/her own church. If, however, the law contained an exemption for the the pastor from the law, then the pastor could carry in his/her own church.

What's difficult about this?

 

[yhtomit]

For RobXD9

'That's always thrown me how you can prohibit a 2nd Amendment right, by violating a 1st Amendment right.

"Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishment of religion."'

Excellent point, but it's even stronger than your paraphrase -- the 1st Amdt. actually says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

A church, as an establishment of religion, shouldn't get any debits or credits in the law, and any law that specifies different rules for (officially recognized) "houses of worship" as such isn't following that plan.

timothy

 

[Biker]

Unless there is a metal detector at the door or a bad guy shows up, no one will know if you're carrying unless you anounce it.

Biker

 

[Technosavant]

In MO, theoretically, you need authorization from somebody who is responsible for the services. Since I'm the preacher, that somebody is me, and I authorize myself. I have also prepared letters for others (letters are unnecessary, IMO, but it made them feel better) giving them authorization.

 

[Desperado]

In Texas

it is prohibited to carry in places of worship (church, synagogue, etc), hospitals, nursing homes, and amusement parks BUT they all require signs stating the law from Section 30.06 of the penal code. I remember that from my CHL class I just took a month and a half ago. I also found it on packing.org

 

[wdlsguy]

It is perfectly legal (in Texas) to carry in a hospital, nursing home, amusement park or church, unless they have posted 30.06 signs.

Texas Penal Code § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
...

 

[TX1911fan]

Yes, it is legal to carry in a church, etc. if they don't have a 30.06 sign, unless you have had oral notice. The sign isn't the only way you can get notice.

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

 

[wdlsguy]

The sign isn't the only way you can get notice.

Good point. Getting back to the original subject, a pastor can carry in his church without a permit under the following provision of Texas law:

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
...
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
...
(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control ...