I’m not particular impressed with sub-minute

[Robert Wilson]

I think the OP makes sense, and I applaud both his skill and his attitude. There is certainly no harm in the pursuit of mechanical accuracy, but too many hunters think that what their gun can do from the bench is an example of what they can do in the field.

 

[happygeek]

There are no benches at Appleseed. It is three position shooting with a sling...no bipods, rests, etc. Shooting positions are standing, sitting, and prone supported only by a sling.

Don't forget about kneeling, they taught that too. When it came to their AQT it went standing at 100 yards, sitting or kneeling [shooter's choice] at 200, prone at 300, and prone again at 400.

They say 4 MOA because they train you to reliably hit 1 inch at 25m in the prone with only a sling. Figure an average man size target is 20 inches wide and that's why they say they train you to hit out to 500 yards.

They also time you on those 4 stages, but you get a lot of time on the last stage with the 400 yard targets.

 

[Big Bill]

If you've gotten out of hunting and aren't into target shooting, then why do you need an all purpose 30-06 rifle that you can shoot 7" groups offhand at 200 yards? Your OP seems illogical to me.

 

[RainDownmyBlues]

You may be getting ragged a lot, but I totally agree with you.

I was raised by a Conservative father, and a Liberal mother. Took my views from both, but always grew up shooting.

My dad only owned a 20ga, 12ga, .22lr, and 30-30. But along with his dad's Garand(served in Korea) I shot quite a bit as a kid. And both taught to shot in real world conditions, not on a sandbag rest that you will never encounter in the field- hunting or battle. I grew up shooting off hand, on my ass across my knee, or prone. And always did very well.

In the army I was Expert on my first Qual. And my second tour on I was a SDM.

Even out, by only a year I can't whine. I'm happy with my accuracy. And I never, ever use a sandbag. Hell I prefer my rifles with Irons. Which is nearly impossible to find on current hunting rifles.

I don't need 1/4" groups at 300meters. I was trained to kill a man at 300-700. Can't say my training let me down. And I'm southpaw.



Essentially what I'm saying. To each their own. I prefer practical accuracy. I can't hunt with a rifle in my state. Thus I have never cared about accuracy off a sandbag. And out in the shtt, we don't carry sandbags. You learn to make you and the rifle to work as one.

 

[justgoto]

Good shooting!

I'll shoot from a rest to test my equipment; if it doesn't shoot sub-moa, something is wrong.

I too was shooting off-hand at 200 yards today. Tomorrow I'll try another shot to see if I can hit the 4" target.

[EDIT] I hit it!

 

[justgoto]

If you've gotten out of hunting and aren't into target shooting, then why do you need an all purpose 30-06 rifle that you can shoot 7" groups offhand at 200 yards? Your OP seems illogical to me.

I can think of a few scenarios where offhand shooting could be beneficial. Mainly in situations where you need to react to a threat quickly.

Say your friend just shot a grizzly in an ineffective area and is now charging you.

Say a SHTF scenario whereas a man is shooting at you and your loved ones, therefore you only have seconds to react.

Also, it is good to know one's capabilities. If one never tries, one might be under the assumption they can, when the opposite may be true. It is best to know that kind of information before attempting it when a hit is mandatory.

 

[Norrick]

If your rifle is accurate from the bench then you will know you should in theory be able to be accurate offhand (basically you have no excuses for your poor performance). Its comforting to know you can improve your ability rather than have to improve your weapon.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Nice shooting Hangingrock! I might say you need to give it a couple clicks left wind, though, you're mostly right of center...

I too am a Highpower shooter and believe the practical test of a shooter is the ability to hit a target standing, sitting or prone. The bench is useful for confirming the accuracy of a rifle and load, but I don't even like it for "zeroing". When you change your position, you change how the rifle reacts and your POI/POA will shift, usually only slightly, but it does shift. For example, at 200 yards my standing and sitting elevation are identical, but prone is 2-3 clicks lower.

And I have never thought the ability to shoot a good score offhand at 200 yards has to impair the ability to hammer targets fast and close. If anything, a shooter who is well versed in the fundamentals of traditional Bullseye type shooting can adapt to action (or other styles of) shooting more easily than a "pure" action shooter can adapt to Bullseye.

 

[Creature]

I find it very satisfying making a ragged hole from a bench...

 

[sappyg]

nice shootin'. i too think low power scopes are the most practical. even at that i know that 50 yards is my max effective range offhand at best. i man has got to know his limitations.

 

[Hangingrock]

Big Bill:If you've gotten out of hunting and aren't into target shooting, then why do you need an all purpose 30-06 rifle that you can shoot 7" groups offhand at 200 yards? Your OP seems illogical to me.

I didn’t say I’m not a target shooter. I just don’t do the bench rest thing much.

I’m down to (2) dedicated target rifles a 40X-7.62 NATO and a much modified 700-223Rem. One is a long course rifle and the other a short course rifle. Both rifles are set up with RPA metallic sights.

As for hunting rifles just two remaining the M-70 and M-94 this is down from a collection that contained a 416-Rem Mag and 375-H&H.

I shoot to maintain skill level. I simply refer to the M70 is a general purpose rife as I no longer actively hunt.

Shooting the M-70 at 200yds standing is just testing a skill level.

 

[offthepaper]

Very good shooting Rock.
I agree that being able to effectively hit a target from various positions is one of the true traits that one must posses to truely claim a title of marksman. No disrespect to the bench shooters, but to me, versitility is king in respect to FA's.
I realize many people out there put many, many hard hours of dedicated practice to achive their levels of accuracy, and certainly can send back some very impressive targets. But to me, the ability to use various techniques and positions is a very desired skill.

just my .02

 

[Smokin Gator]

One of the ranges I go to usually has 3 or 4 shooters shooting bench rested rifles. A lot of times I am the only handgun shooter, sometimes another person or two. I don't know what the rifle target shooters do all of the time, but when I've seen them I never see one shoot from any other position then seated at the bench. Some have more elaborate bag setups than others. I'll also do some rifle shooting, usually standing, with my 45-70. Occasionally I'll have a seat and fire a few rounds with the forearm partly supported with my shooting bag. Mark

 

[WNTFW]

Rock,
Sorry if you already addressed this: Do you shoot offhand at 200 with iron sights? Good shooting! Like a a friend of mine says "There is accuracy and then there is practical accuracy".

 

[X-Rap]

I guess your OP just hit me as a little condescending and elitist. That is good shooting but as I said there was no mention of time and I'm sure you didn't just run 50yds just to get your blood pumping. I say that because standing is no more practical at that distance in the field as shooting off bags.
Myself, I shoot all positions as part of a typical session and can routinely hit steel 10" plates at 100 with iron sites.
That is good shooting but would have been more impressive if you wouldn't have had to berate other shooters in the process.JMO

 

[Hangingrock]

WNTFW: Do you shoot offhand at 200 with iron sights?

Yes when I shoot Service Rifle examples being M1 – M14/M1A & AR15 also Match Rifle example Remington 40X 7.62 NATO with metallic sights such as those made by RPA.

 

[guntech59]

I am pretty impressed, hangingrock! My offhand targets from only 100 yards look about like that.

About the low magnification, I find I actually shoot better off hand with the scope dialed down to the low end when shooting unsupported.

 

[AKElroy]

Nice groups!! I am too old & shaky for that anymore.

I can live with missing a shot, but I can't live with it being the fault of the equipment. Sub MOA groups are important for me to wring out all the rifle can give, and the rest is up to me. That's why I site in the equipment w/ leadSled, and then practice offhand after the equipment is dialed in.

 

[Uncle Mike]

There is certainly no harm in the pursuit of mechanical accuracy, but too many hunters think that what their gun can do from the bench is an example of what they can do in the field.

Robert hit the nail square on the head....

I see a lot of guys in the woods that are packing a shooting stick of some kind, a bipod bolted to the forearm or 'slung up' while walking, I don't know, I have always used the nearest tree for support if the shot was 300y or so, any other time it'll be standing or sitting shots I take, and 99% of those will be without the use of the sling.

Now, I do throw across the seat of the 4-wheeler from time to time! hehehe

 

[AKElroy]

No substitue for swinging shots on game, though. Last weekend, I took a sorry 4 point cull buck; placed the shot just behind the left shoulder with him quartering away. The shot exited the right shoulder, taking the joint with it & leaving a 5" hole. Nasty. He ran 3 paces, jumped the pen, and tumbled head over heel because the missing shoulder cound not take any weight. That was 165 yds, and I should have waited for a better angle to save that shoulder.

Second shot of the day was a decent 8 point, entered & exited behind both shoulders, all meat intact. 90 yds. Buck tag full. The only really clean shot of the weekend, maybe 90 yards is my new max range.

Next day, I was riding around & had a 140ish lb sow trot the trail in front of the truck, and then hide (in plain sight) in some tall thin grass about 90 yrds away. Not wanting to make unnecessary noise with a shot on opening weekend an hour before the afternoon hunt, I sat & watched her. She just sat there, daring me. I got out with my front seat .30-30 (williams peep on a model 94), and put a shot in the dirt a foot in front of her. Clean miss on sitting game, with no followup possible due to brush & cows.

Sometimes I wonder how much offhand practice is enough.

 

[WNTFW]

HangingRock,
I figured you did because of the target & the 200yds. Plus the results.

I shoot highpower & F Class T/R sporatically. I can't figure out which I like better. Shooting XTC kind of tipped the scales in the direction of service rifle. F Class is a little less equipment intensive in terms of what I bring to the line, but my competitors can't blow there offhand score.

How do your groups with a service rifle compare? I saw that the NRA is adding an any sight class to highpower. None of the better shooters think the scoped guys will do much score wise.

 

[sig220mw]

Hey Bill, the answer is obvious. Because he wants to.

Don't you find shooting to be fun all by itself?

 

[Hangingrock]

WNTFW: How do your groups with a service rifle compare? I saw that the NRA is adding an any sight class to highpower. None of the better shooters think the scoped guys will do much score wise.

To the best of my recollection this is one of the best if not the best (10) round strings that I fired at 200yds standing match rifle. At the moment I can’t find my service rifle record books. I believe better sight systems should result in better scores if the shooter is up to the equipment capability.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

If your rifle is accurate from the bench then you will know you should in theory be able to be accurate offhand (basically you have no excuses for your poor performance). Its comforting to know you can improve your ability rather than have to improve your weapon.

Yep. You cannot judge your own ability until you know your equipment is up to the task.

 

[kaferhaus]

To the best of my recollection this is one of the best if not the best (10) round strings that I fired at 200yds standing match rifle. At the moment I can’t find my service rifle record books. I believe better sight systems should result in better scores if the shooter is up to the equipment capability.

Good group and nice score. unfortunately at the Hi-power club I shoot in that's about average with some guys X-ing out rather regularly, which puts me a bit behind the 8 ball. But we did send 18 guys to Camp Perry this year, so the competition is pretty tough around here.

I'm much more impressed with nice group like that shot with irons than I'll ever be with one shot with optics.

The OP shot a nice group with his scope but I'd bet if he showed up at a decent HP match he'd get his clock cleaned by 75% of the guys shooting peep sights.....