I ALMOST, had to clear my house today.

[sacp81170a]

I am socially liberal. I am fiscally conservative. I believe personal freedom and privacy are supremely important. I am uniformly unimpressed with either ruling party.

I agree. I'm a "little l" libertarian in that I don't agree completely with all the Libertarian Party's platform. Now that Ron Paul is no longer in the race, I don't feel like I'm being represented.

This one has wandered way OT. Maybe the mods should put it to rest...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i hope i never have to but this thread has inspired me. if i ever have to clear my house i'm gonna open the door and shove my billy goat in. i don't like him a bunch and he doesn't like strangers at all. the screaming if he finds someone would be awesome.and he can jump higher than my dog no way to escape or hide from him

 

[sacp81170a]

i ever have to clear my house i'm gonna open the door and shove my billy goat in.

Now you owe me a keyboard...

 

[Treo]

To Sacp

I find it interesting that you're calling for a thread lock.

I really think you don't understand our point of view, I have nothing against you personally. If I met you on the range I'd probably talk guns W/ you.

But when you put on that uniform you also put on the authority to bring total chaos to my life, and there's not one thing I can do to prevent it, and that that scares the living HELL out of me!

I've heard cops here talk about how they can't automatically tell I'm a good guy just by looking at my CHP, and I'm ok W/ that. Now tell me how I'm supposed to know that you're a good guy just because you're wearing a badge?

Have you forgotten Greensburg Kansas? How about New Orleans?

Do you know that I have never had a cop "wave me over" just for a chat? just so he could get to know the people in his patrol area. In every interaction I have ever had W/ a cop he has alway been looking for evidence of a crime, even if the "crime" was speeding.

When you interact W/ me the odds are totally in YOUR favor. We both have guns but you have handcuffs, a taser, a BPV , an ASP a radio and back up. You have the option of choosing any one or ALL of those, should you decide that it's necessary to ensure that "you go home at night" . I'm ok W/ that but who's making sure that I'm going home at night? What options do I have? If I so much raise my voice I'm "resisting arrest"

Do you really blame me for doing all I can to minimize my contact W/ you?

Do you really find it odd that that I think long and hard before voluntarily inviting you into my life?

 

[sacp81170a]

I find it interesting that you're calling for a thread lock.

I did so because looking at the last several posts, this one is beginning to wander far from what happened to the OP. That's the problem when we devolve into the typical "us against them" attitude against the police.

Do you really find it odd that that I think long and hard before voluntarily inviting you into my life?

Don't look now, but we're already there. How you choose to deal with the reality is up to you. When I was talking about waving "Hi" to a police officer and chatting with him, I was talking about you initiating the contact. If you really have that much fear of a uniform and a badge there's seemingly nothing I can say that will help.

Have you forgotten Greensburg Kansas? How about New Orleans?

Do you live in Greensburg or New Orleans? Do you know who your local beat cops are? You might be pleasantly surprised if you got to know them. To steer this a little back on topic, wouldn't it make tactical sense to know who's likely to show up when you do make that panic call for help? Cops aren't ogres out to violate the rights of every citizen. They're far more aware of what constitutes an infraction of the law than most people are, but I'd say that's a failing of our system of educating our citizens.

When you interact W/ me the odds are totally in YOUR favor. We both have guns but you have handcuffs, a taser, a BPV , an ASP a radio and back up. You have the option of choosing any one or ALL of those, should you decide that it's necessary to ensure that "you go home at night" .

Are you saying that having all those weapons will drive us mad and make us use them at the drop of a hat? That's the same objectification of tools that anti-gunners are guilty of. 99.99% of gun owners did not mow down innocent women and children at a mall or in a school last year. 99.99% of cops didn't beat down a peaceful citizen last year. The bad ones make the headlines, the good ones get ignored.

But when you put on that uniform you also put on the authority to bring total chaos to my life, and there's not one thing I can do to prevent it, and that that scares the living HELL out of me!

It's not the uniform that gives me authority, it's the commission and the oath. Having a badge on me isn't necessary either. You probably run into police officers all the time without knowing about it. We tend not to just blurt it out to everyone we meet because there are people who will hate you just for being a cop. Some of those will try to hurt or kill you just because you're a cop, so we're understandably cautious. I'm restraining the usual knee-jerk reactions (cop bashing, etc.) and name calling that these discussions always seem to end in. I gave you some of my background so that you would know that I'm not dependent on being a cop for my livelihood. If my department ever gets as corrupt as some of the ones you mention I can walk away without financial burden. I've already helped put a few bad cops off the force but I can't talk about the details of those incidents. I put on the vest, uniform, duty gear and walk out the door for a shift knowing that I may be walking into a world of hurt. My wife hates it, but she thinks it's better than going back in the military.

Yes, I will clear your house for you, and if a BG happens to have a gun then I'll deal with that when it happens. I won't be pulling apart your couch looking for roaches when all I need to see is that there's no one there to threaten you and yours. I do it as part of giving something back to the society, and if I can encourage others to view law enforcement officers as humans with imperfections but still with a duty, then so much the better for both of us.

 

[Seattleimport]

New to these boards, but just wanted to chime in with a virtual pat on the back for sacp81170a. You seem like a right honorable guy, and I'd be grateful to have you on patrol in my neighborhood. If there is such a thing as an ideal cop, I think it'd be what you described: part-time, full-training, and motivated wholly by a sense of responsibility for his community.

 

[sacp81170a]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

motivated wholly by a sense of responsibility for his community.

Well, not entirely... I do like the donuts.

 

[B yond]

Next time...

...crash your car through the front of the house, that way you'll catch any potential BGs off-guard and have just enough time to leap through the passenger's side window of your car (they'd be expecting the driver's side), scream "I'm Chuck Norris, I have you surrounded!" and run through the house yelling "aaaiiyah!" as you enter each room. Of course if you do encounter any BGs just snap their necks with one hand like Steven Segal. If they're armed just take their guns away and use them against them (I hear that's why nobody should carry a gun for self-defense).

Of course that was all sarcasm and if you try any of that don't tell anyone I told you to do it.

Good luck.

 

[kd7nqb]

Wow, I leave a thread alone for 24hrs and it turns into a cop bashing thread. So very much not what I was looking for.

Anyway I think the original question has been answered. If anybody want to add STRATEGIES or TACTICS to this thread please go ahead.

 

[sacp81170a]

If anybody want to add STRATEGIES or TACTICS to this thread please go ahead.

Okay, here's a strategy:

Get to know the local officers who may be the ones who will respond to your house. This can be done by calling up your local PD's non-emergency number and asking them to send someone over to do a home security evaluation with you. Most departments have a crime prevention unit that will be more than happy to do this. This will help you get to know the people who may very well be coming to your side in a crisis. They get to know you and the layout of your house which is a big help when something's going down at oh-dark-thirty. If your local PD is so corrupt that you don't trust them to do this, then consider moving someplace where the PD is good.

It's a quality of life thing.

Here's a tactic:

Establish a duress word procedure with your family or roommates. By this I mean that, if you call to find out if everything is all right, you have a code word they can drop into a conversation so they can alert you if anything is wrong without letting someone else know. In other words, if someone's holding them and they answer the phone, they don't have to blurt out "There's a man with a gun here!" It can be as easy as "I visited Mrs. "Smith" today," or some other innocuous sounding phrase that alerts you that all is not well.

 

[scottishclaymore]

As I see it, the original issue here was whether or not it'd be a better idea to clear your house yourself, should you see something that appears to be squirrelly, or call the police and let them do it for you. Frankly, I think that all depends on your individual capability and training -- also, your disposition.

If I found myself in the original circumstance described in this thread, my first reaction would be to make the phone calls (as you wisely did) and find out what's going on. Then, I'd make a careful inspection of the perimeter before clearing the house myself with my Remington 820. Why? Simply because it probably wouldn't occur to me to call the police.

The way I was raised was to take care of oneself and not expect other people to take responsibility for your actions, safety, or family. I am in no way undermining the hard work of all the good cops I have known, most of whom take their job seriously and are decent individuals. You can't, as has already been noted, paint with a broad brush. Some cops are crooks, yes. A lot of them treat us law-abiding citizens like idiots, yes (though that is probably because they have to deal with a lot of idiots on a daily basis, so I try to cut them some slack). But some of them are also genuinely good people who want you to be able to exercise your right to defend yourself.

Bottom line: If you have the confidence and capability and tools to defend your own castle, do so. That's the way it was done back in the old days, and ideally that's how we all want to be. But, if that's not where you are, by all means, call the police. They're here to protect and serve. Of course, a lot hinges on how much you trust them -- trust issues between civilians and cops are generally the fault of both parties, to some extent.

All that said, I give a nod of thanks to sacp81170a. While I don't entirely agree with all you've said, you seem like an upstanding gentleman who really wants to give to the community, and I respect that.

 

[thecatsfan]

I live in a small town in Colorado. Relatively safe by comparison to many other places. I have a wife and two daughters at home. When I com e home, normally all of them are already home. If I came home and my garage door was open and no cars were in the driveway, I would not hesitate to enter my home.

First of all, everyone has their own perspective on what is alarming. I would not find an open garage door a cause for panic, but I would find it out of place. Out of place does not warrant dialing 911 in my world.

First of all, in my experience, logic would make me think of 20 reasons why that door was open other than a burglar. Sometimes I think we manufacture things to be afraid of. As with the original poster, there was a logical, simple, harmless reason for the open door. Now I am not saying I would assume nothing was wrong, but I certainly wouldn’t assume something was.

But let’s say it was a BG. If a BG was in my home, how would I know one of my children, or my wife, wasn’t in harm's way - potentially only moments from being discovered? What if the BG had already left but a member of my family was badly injured in need of immediate attention? I used to be an EMT, but I can’t help someone who is critically injured standing outside making phone calls. Would you want to wait in that situation? How would you feel if you learned an hour later that you had stood outside waiting for a patrol car while your child bled to death?

On the other hand, what if it really was nothing?

Everyone has their own comfort level. For me, unless I see true evidence of a potential invader in my home, I am not going to hesitate to walk through the door to my home without LEO escort. And I am not going to sneak around my home looking for bad guys. I will walk in my house and holler loud to see if anyone is at home.

The day I am too afraid to enter my own home because the garage door was open, I will move to a safer place. The day that place does not exist will be a sad day.

We can sit here all day and think of fictitious scenarios why we should or should not enter that door. And before any of those scenarios genuinely happens to one of us, a third of us are likely to have died from heart disease, cancer, a traffic accident, or our own stupidity.

I refuse to live in such fear of life that I will not enter my own home. That’s my choice.

And on a side note, I know some of the local LEO very well. At least one local officer in my neighborhood will probably be at my home for an adult beverage or two this weekend.

 

[sacp81170a]

I refuse to live in such fear of life that I will not enter my own home. That’s my choice.

If I found myself in the original circumstance described in this thread, my first reaction would be to make the phone calls (as you wisely did) and find out what's going on. Then, I'd make a careful inspection of the perimeter before clearing the house myself with my Remington 820. Why? Simply because it probably wouldn't occur to me to call the police.

I have absolutely no problem with the attitude(s) expressed. Based on the totality of circumstances, if your gut tells you things are normal then go for it. Give yourself every advantage that you can, but be equipped for the job. The OP's only problem was that he didn't have a firearm when he may have needed one. I typically carry my duty rifle and shotgun in the trunk of my car, and I never step out my front door unless armed. If you don't live in an area where that's an option, calling LE may be the wiser course. As I said in a previous post, my dog should be running around in the yard if my wife isn't home, so I'd probably go looking to see if he had somehow gotten out first.

And on a side note, I know some of the local LEO very well. At least one local officer in my neighborhood will probably be at my home for an adult beverage or two this weekend.

Always a good way to get 'em on your side. Invite 'em over for a brewski or two. What a novel idea...

ETA: Is that a strategy or a tactic?

 

[Bear Tracker]

9:1 That's the ratio of people it takes to unseat someone who is 'dug in' or 'holed up'. I have more than casual gun training and skills. Personally the only way I would clear my home is if I thought family members were in danger inside or if I did not attempt entry. Seems like quite a few people have applied a lot of flawed logic to this circumstace. Who said there would not be multiple intruders? Two, Ten? Secondly, where is it written they were not going to be aware of your presence first? A lookout posted outside with a nextel in a car sitting at the curb, across the street. Some of these punks are good shots and potentially have more gunfighting experiece than we ever will. How many times have you been shot at? Men have you beaten to death with your bare hands, stabbed, shot? Killed? Now that being said I like a lot of the 'tactics' I have read in this post and will add them to my memory banks. I like what orginal poster did by calling first (in his set of circumsances). I would call all the family memebers that live in my home and have reason to access it (three others - wife, daughter, son) on their cells. If their corresponding vehicle was present and I had no reponse to the call, I would look scan for possible lookout(s), suspicious or unknown vehicle, or other 'out of place' objects (personal goods, lawn funiture, broken glass, torn screens, foot prints in grass, mud, leaves, garden) without exposing myself to possible attack. Then I would trigger my alarm system and wait to see what happens next (from cover of course). Next I would contact the State Police and decribe the situation and myself to them, clothes I am wearing type of car I am driving, other family members unaccounted for, any clues I have discovered, etc. If not necessary, no use having them or someone else killed because they wound up responding at topspeed to a non-life threatening circumstance. If one of loved one was unaccounted for and corresponing vehilce was in driveway, I would have a hard time to keep from entering without waiting for the police. After all they could be mortally wounded or being attacked while I waited. Truth is it is probably best to wait for thse simple reason that the intruder(s) would be more likely to try to kill all of us before the cops arrive than after they get there.

Bear

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

heck the guys in the house don't have to be good it can all come down to luck their good luck or your bad luck.
god i love living where i live 13 years and never even had a key

 

[simpleguy]

Guns in Oregon Schools

Quote:
My only thought is........bring your gun to school with you. In Oregon it's legal if you are legal to carry. That said, I think you did fine.

No, we lost right to carry with the Katz Case, until her case is overturned the schools conduct code carries weight. It sucks.

Anyway not to create a thread drift but I felt it was important to mention.

BTW you guys have convinced me that the kel-tec that will float between my pocket and my center console is something that my next paycheck should bring me.

Please forgive me for the continuance of the thread drift. The argument of the Katz case was that as a condition of her employment Ms. Katz could not bring her firearm to work. Not that students or others could not bring firearms to schools.

 

[sacp81170a]

Who said there would not be multiple intruders? Two, Ten? Secondly, where is it written they were not going to be aware of your presence first? A lookout posted outside with a nextel in a car sitting at the curb, across the street. Some of these punks are good shots and potentially have more gunfighting experiece than we ever will.

Just how would those ten guys get to your house? Would they rent a van? Take the bus? Man, if you've got ten guys in your house and there's a lookout posted outside, you've either got Fort Knox stashed inside or it's a BATFE search warrant...

Not exaggerating, 99% of the burglaries I've seen were committed by one, maybe two guys at the max. For the most part they know not to carry guns with 'em so they don't get the extra time when they're caught. It's the gangs that tend to carry guns around here and they don't dabble much in burglary because there's not enough money in it. There truly are areas of specialization.

I say this not to minimize the potential for danger but to inject a little reality into the situation. The guys who have been saying to yell out and tell anybody in the house that they're home and know someone is there have pretty much presented the best immediate course of action. Of course you should be armed, but the crooks around here know that a lot of people are. They won't hole up and shoot it out because there's not much future in that. They'll grab what they've got and book. The last thing they want is to get caught or shot, and they're more afraid of you with a gun than they are of the cops with guns. They know what to expect from us. You, on the other hand, might just shoot them dead. Don't minimize the fear that criminals have of armed citizens.

 

[Creature]

Well u can't call the cops because the door is open so, to clear it grab a bat out of the garage and make ur way straight to ur closest firearm then go room to room.

This early post is one of the most uninformed things I have ever read. Where the heck did you get that idea? You most certainly can call the police if you feel there is a crime taking place in your home!

I cant believe how far we have come as a country, and how emasculated we are when the majority of people on a gun board recommend that you dont even secure your own house.

I hardly call it emasculation. I call it prudence. See USMC Rules of Comabt rule #1.

This thread is getting a little heated.

I wonder why. After you publicly decry LEO as being untrustworthy, what did you expect?

Bottom line: If you suspect you home is being burlarized, then retreat, observe, and call in the calvalry.

 

[eatont9999]

I would rather get shot than leave my loved ones in a house full of rapists and murderers for 3-5 minutes while waiting for the cops to cruise on down. A lot can happen in 3 minutes. A family member could be raped or murdered in that amount of time. Another good reason to have a piece in your glove box at all times; I would not feel safe going in without a gun, but I still would. This of course depends on whether or not I think a loved one is actually in the house. I would call the police before entering, but I would not wait for them.

 

[bruss01]

Here's an example that happened just this Saturday night. Maybe some right, maybe some wrong with this, but here's how it went down...

Wife and I on the sofa about 11pm Saturday night, watching a little TV. Heard a "whump" from the other side of the house, followed closely by a "w-thump". Dog outside back yard cuts loose. So, should we cower in terror and call the cops? Or assume the homeownerly duty to "check it out"?

We opted to check it out. I grabbed my mag light and said to her "Back me up!" She retrieves her XD9 and spare mag and is right behind me. Open the back door and dog comes rushing inside. Nice job Fido. I'm out scanning the yard and working my way around corners, slicing the pie. She's backing me up, maintaining a 90 degree angle between me and where the flashilght is targeted so I won't be in line of fire if a bad guy pops up who needs to be dealt with. In the end, nothing suspect was found. We think it may have been the neighbor's cat(s) jumping from the tree onto the house roof.

We'd have felt pretty silly calling the cops to clear our yard because we heard a noise. I was pleased with our choice of action and how it was executed. We've both been through many hours of training (90+ for me and 60+ for her) on self-defense use of firearms. I had complete confidence in her backing me up with deadly force.

eta: I felt comfortable with our choice for the following reasons: While there was "a noise" and the dog alerted, there was no evidence of any human intrusion (voices, footsteps, flashlight beams etc.). You don't want to go calling the cops every time a little branch drops on your roof or a squirrel hops across your fence and the dog goes off. If we'd had any evidence of real people being in our yard late at night, you can bet a call to 911 would have been a priority and we'd have been a bit more conservative in our choice of actions. But we couldn't just sit on the sofa and shrug. We just would not have been able to relax and enjoy our home. I would rather have a few tense moments checking out a noise that turns out to be nothing, than to sit and worry and fret and have nightmares wondering what was/is/could go wrong. It's satisfying to check it out and find all's secure.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I am not interested in going to a city council meeting and getting persecuted by the police. I will continue to vote against taxes and budget increases for the department.

Then you aren't interested in doing your civic duty and you wouldn't support an honest police department if you had one.
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sacp81170a, its so sad that we have some of our own (the cop bashers) that are as bad as the anti-gunners.

People wakeup. There are bad people in every group. There are bad bankers but that doesn't mean all bankers are bad. There are bad doctors, that doesn't mean all doctors are bad. The same applies to cops.

Take what sacp81170a is saying to heart. He is making a lot more sense then the ones of you that are just bashing!!

 

[hollywoodfl]

The reason I say that is that the people who have been critical of the department have been persecuted by the department. We have a new chief as of last week, so hopefully things will get better. Also four of the worst went to prison last year, so HOPEFULLY things will get better.