labcoat31
Member
Any ideas
Can anyone recommend any good books on the second amendment?
Can anyone recommend any good books on the second amendment?
I am having a hard time trying to decide on a caliber for a defensive handgun
- Thread starter gomakemeasandwich
- Start date
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MikePGS
Member
Since you said that 9mm is the frontrunner, i suggest that you go with that. Your right, its relatively inexpensive, and easy to find ammunition for. Which means that your more likely to practice a good deal with it. Which is the most important aspect of a defensive handgun: Shot placement. A handgun is far from an ideal weapon but of course you can't carry a shotgun or rifle with you concealed, so we have to settle for handguns. Your .380 is probably more than adequate, but if you would really feel comfortable with a bigger round, the 9mm should be more than enough provided that you load it correctly. Yes, .45 ball ammunition is clearly superior to 9mm ball... but you of course will not be loading it with ball, you will be using premium hollow point ammunition, possibly of the +p variety. I read somewhere, and i don't really have a source so take it with a grain of salt, that the highest percentage of 1 shot stops comes from +p 9mm ammunition, which the author attributed to police officers using the round frequently. The reason for this wouldn't be that the round is a "magic bullet" or any sorts, but rather that the shot placement is ideal in these situations. Theres a really good article written by one of the Moderators here, Stephen Camp on his website that breaks down 9mm vs .45 in a way that really puts things into perspective. http://hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm vs 45.htm Theres the link, hopefully it will help you with your decision.
kashton
Member
gomakemeasandwich -- "I have never been a fan of the .40 caliber, I'm not sure why. It compares well to the .45 and even the .357 Magnum, but there is just something about it that I don't like (maybe because it was the first handgun round I ever shot, and it was in a Glock, which I don't like. I shot the same round later in one of my friend's S&W autoloaders and loved it). I can't really explain it. With that said however, recoil is manageable, and I can shoot accurately with it."
I see that you are not a fan of the .40 caliber. Especially in a Glock... many people aren't fans of Glocks but many are die hard fans too.
I know a lot of people will disagree but I personally LOVE the .40 caliber for self defense. All of my guns are .40 cal for SD besides my S&W 642 CT which is .38 Special +P. The truth is that 9mm/.38/.40/.357 sig/.45 will all work if you use them right. Pick the one that you feel suits YOU the best. Shoot them all. First find a gun that feels good in your hands and THEN shoot the different calibers for that gun model. Feel the kick and see how well you aim/shoot with each caliber. Then choose a caliber for that specific model/make. That should work well for you. Since you don't like Glock, I would suggest the H&K P2000/P2000SK (P2000SK is a smaller model that will conceal better). The H&K is a VERY reliable handgun, very durable, and VERY accurate. It also looks sweeeeet. I own an H&K P2000SK and LOVE it. I also love glocks, I own a Glock 27 and it is one of my top two favorites, along with my H&K P2000SK. Try one out and see how it feels, I was dead accurate with it the first time I shot it. Try out the V2/V3 as the V2 has a LEM/DAO (Law Enforcement Modification, Double Action Only - 7-8 lbs) trigger and the V3 has a DA/SA (Double action / Single action) trigger where the hammer locks back much like a 1911 style pistol. The V3 also has a decocker. Best of luck and let us know what you decide on!
Kevin
I see that you are not a fan of the .40 caliber. Especially in a Glock... many people aren't fans of Glocks but many are die hard fans too.
I know a lot of people will disagree but I personally LOVE the .40 caliber for self defense. All of my guns are .40 cal for SD besides my S&W 642 CT which is .38 Special +P. The truth is that 9mm/.38/.40/.357 sig/.45 will all work if you use them right. Pick the one that you feel suits YOU the best. Shoot them all. First find a gun that feels good in your hands and THEN shoot the different calibers for that gun model. Feel the kick and see how well you aim/shoot with each caliber. Then choose a caliber for that specific model/make. That should work well for you. Since you don't like Glock, I would suggest the H&K P2000/P2000SK (P2000SK is a smaller model that will conceal better). The H&K is a VERY reliable handgun, very durable, and VERY accurate. It also looks sweeeeet. I own an H&K P2000SK and LOVE it. I also love glocks, I own a Glock 27 and it is one of my top two favorites, along with my H&K P2000SK. Try one out and see how it feels, I was dead accurate with it the first time I shot it. Try out the V2/V3 as the V2 has a LEM/DAO (Law Enforcement Modification, Double Action Only - 7-8 lbs) trigger and the V3 has a DA/SA (Double action / Single action) trigger where the hammer locks back much like a 1911 style pistol. The V3 also has a decocker. Best of luck and let us know what you decide on!
Kevin
Lonestar49
Member
I want my money back.. lol
...
5 pages, and still going.. lol
Maybe the Mods should lock this one up.. it served its purpose.. lol
LS
...
5 pages, and still going.. lol
Maybe the Mods should lock this one up.. it served its purpose.. lol
LS
kashton
Member
Sorry, I didn't want to go through 5 pages to see if he bought one already. My bad... just trying to give some friendly advice. Maybe another person will have the same question and will have 5 pages of answers to look at
It's not that simple. To understand the absurd, convoluted, non-Constitutional law system with Firearms, you need to understand the following:
Supremacy Clause, Scope of the Bill of Rights, according to the 14th Amendment, The Commerce Clause, The 10th Amendment, and that's a good start.
In short, the 2nd Amendment was extended by the 14th and the 5th, to apply to the states. So, all Federal laws governing firearms are non-constitutional, if you are a 'strict constructionist' who believe 'no law' means 'no law.
Now, if the 2nd Amendment is extended against the states, then all firearms regulations by city, county, and state governments are non-constitutional.
Plus, the Commerce Clause should also be applied to the Federal gun laws, since they inhibit interstate commerce, with no real benefit to balance them against.
The 10th Amendment says that all areas of law not reserved to the Federal Government are to be governed by the states. However, the 14th amendment, and the 5th, IIRC, extend the Bill of Rights against the states, limiting the states rights to pass laws that contradict the Federal Authority, and, that contradict the Federal Constitution Bill of Rights.
You can pretty much put all of this stuff at the feet of FDR, who, with his tremendous majority, and threatening the Supreme Court with expansion, forced the judges who blocked him to retire, and, so we ended up with Federal laws that are illegal, and, likewise the Federal Agencies to enforce them.
Do a web search, and you'll find sites like this:
http://www.virginiainstitute.org/publications/primer_on_const.php
S esq.
Lonestar49
Member
You might want to..
Quote: Can anyone recommend any good books on the second amendment?
-----------
...
LC31,
You might want to post a "new thread" with this question so you'll get a lot of responses.
My own would be a simple, when they were written, it was basically a black and white issue, but thru time, such as "free speech", they've amended this Right, where you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, for example.. etc.
Same deal with "The Right to Bear Arms".. it's been " reinterpreted by Judges that lean toward a political agenda and, depending on what side of the bed a Judge gets up on, could, would, may, deem how one's "right to carry" or "bear an arm/s" would turn out, if brought up on a charge/s, in our "many" court of laws.
Post it, should be some vibrant discussions..
LS
Quote: Can anyone recommend any good books on the second amendment?
-----------
...
LC31,
You might want to post a "new thread" with this question so you'll get a lot of responses.
My own would be a simple, when they were written, it was basically a black and white issue, but thru time, such as "free speech", they've amended this Right, where you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, for example.. etc.
Same deal with "The Right to Bear Arms".. it's been " reinterpreted by Judges that lean toward a political agenda and, depending on what side of the bed a Judge gets up on, could, would, may, deem how one's "right to carry" or "bear an arm/s" would turn out, if brought up on a charge/s, in our "many" court of laws.
Post it, should be some vibrant discussions..
LS
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It's also fear. Judges, just like all elected officials, realize how vulnerable they are to being shot. However, in their quest for safety, they reduce law abiding citizens ability to actually protect public officials.
I go back to the old saying from Yamamoto about a gun behind every bush, or the Airplane movie, where the terrorist pulls a gun, and, everybody on the entire plane pulls one, and points it at him. Makes the point of the 2nd amendment in a graphic, and efficient way.
S esq.
I go back to the old saying from Yamamoto about a gun behind every bush, or the Airplane movie, where the terrorist pulls a gun, and, everybody on the entire plane pulls one, and points it at him. Makes the point of the 2nd amendment in a graphic, and efficient way.
S esq.
Lonestar49
Member
Post it in the 'Legal' forum
...
Yep, we agree there S..
But LC31, if you decide to post the question, post it in the "Legal" forum above.
LS
...
Yep, we agree there S..
But LC31, if you decide to post the question, post it in the "Legal" forum above.
LS
flyfisher000
Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2007
- Messages
- 4
Jerry Morris:
I am not in the medical field and i can just repeat what Webster says, but Shock is when the body starts to go into a semi state of coma. Parts of the body start to shut down. It is like putting the mind and body on standby. That is where the body can go into a point of no return. How fast is the onset of shock, it depends on the individual person. The rest of what you say only supports what I am saying bigger doesn't mean better.
I don't think that there is a person with a 40cal gun that will not dive for cover just because the other guy just has a 22cal gun.
The 380 is a cal that has been and still is in service in many parts of the world. It has been around like the 45 for a long time. It was effective back then and is effective today, even more so with all of these types of new bullets.
In a nut shell, I would much rather face (ANYDAY) a bad guy who has a 40 cal handgun and who has fired it twice in the backyard, then someone with a 22cal that goes to the range once a week and fires a 100 rounds or more to practice. I do not believe in bigger is better and spray and pray.
I am not in the medical field and i can just repeat what Webster says, but Shock is when the body starts to go into a semi state of coma. Parts of the body start to shut down. It is like putting the mind and body on standby. That is where the body can go into a point of no return. How fast is the onset of shock, it depends on the individual person. The rest of what you say only supports what I am saying bigger doesn't mean better.
I don't think that there is a person with a 40cal gun that will not dive for cover just because the other guy just has a 22cal gun.
The 380 is a cal that has been and still is in service in many parts of the world. It has been around like the 45 for a long time. It was effective back then and is effective today, even more so with all of these types of new bullets.
In a nut shell, I would much rather face (ANYDAY) a bad guy who has a 40 cal handgun and who has fired it twice in the backyard, then someone with a 22cal that goes to the range once a week and fires a 100 rounds or more to practice. I do not believe in bigger is better and spray and pray.
Lonestar49
Member
Shock comes in many forms..
...
Medically speaking, acc Websters, I'm sure that is the right meaning of shock, but it has many applications..
Such as, one can go into shock, by witnessing an event (bad event) which basically puts one into shock, the inability to act, so to speak, or tweak ones thinking capability's, to lose thought (processing) or one can go into shock and not feel pain and continue lifting, running, etc., with a broken bone.
I think the shock value of a 380 cal could be like comparing getting hit in the chest with Bee Bee, as compared to say, a 45 cal, like getting hit in the chest with a frying pan..
Both could, cause shock, but I think the frying pan, being bigger, with more Punch, due to weight, may just knock the wind out of someone, or knock them down, putting them out of the fight for the shooters advantage, in taking another shot, or getting out of Dodge..
I think we all agree that shot placement wins the day for the ultimate shock value, but given the same shot hitting a non-killing zone, I'd bet the 45, 44 357, 40cal, and not necessarily in that order, would have more shock value than a 380 IMHO, be the receiving end on super drugs, or none at all.
There are advantages with speed/velocity, but weight is what carry's the day over less weight with more velocity, as a lighter object is gonna slow down faster up against the same wall/impact area than a much heavier object, that takes more time to stop, even though it's going a little slower, due to its own inertia (its own mass/weight).
But like you, I would not want to stand in front of either a 22 cal, or a 40cal, etc., because either one, if it hits, it's gonna have a shock value within your own mind, feeling the sting, punch, pain, etc., that one knows, he's been hit.
And I don't take enough drugs of any kind, to dull that factor, personally..lol
LS
PS.. You see this weight-effect everyday with SUV's going slow but doing so much damage to the cars they hit, as opposed to the same speed, or faster, of a light car hitting another car, and far less damage, both for the car being hit and the occupants inside (as another example, in general).
...
Medically speaking, acc Websters, I'm sure that is the right meaning of shock, but it has many applications..
Such as, one can go into shock, by witnessing an event (bad event) which basically puts one into shock, the inability to act, so to speak, or tweak ones thinking capability's, to lose thought (processing) or one can go into shock and not feel pain and continue lifting, running, etc., with a broken bone.
I think the shock value of a 380 cal could be like comparing getting hit in the chest with Bee Bee, as compared to say, a 45 cal, like getting hit in the chest with a frying pan..
Both could, cause shock, but I think the frying pan, being bigger, with more Punch, due to weight, may just knock the wind out of someone, or knock them down, putting them out of the fight for the shooters advantage, in taking another shot, or getting out of Dodge..
I think we all agree that shot placement wins the day for the ultimate shock value, but given the same shot hitting a non-killing zone, I'd bet the 45, 44 357, 40cal, and not necessarily in that order, would have more shock value than a 380 IMHO, be the receiving end on super drugs, or none at all.
There are advantages with speed/velocity, but weight is what carry's the day over less weight with more velocity, as a lighter object is gonna slow down faster up against the same wall/impact area than a much heavier object, that takes more time to stop, even though it's going a little slower, due to its own inertia (its own mass/weight).
But like you, I would not want to stand in front of either a 22 cal, or a 40cal, etc., because either one, if it hits, it's gonna have a shock value within your own mind, feeling the sting, punch, pain, etc., that one knows, he's been hit.
And I don't take enough drugs of any kind, to dull that factor, personally..lol
LS
PS.. You see this weight-effect everyday with SUV's going slow but doing so much damage to the cars they hit, as opposed to the same speed, or faster, of a light car hitting another car, and far less damage, both for the car being hit and the occupants inside (as another example, in general).
Common Sense
Sandwich,
I would just try and use common sense.
Use the most powerful handgun than you can control and is within the size and cost goals you have set.
I would skip the .45ACP. I do not believe it can do anything that the .40S&W caliber cannot do if you use the right load. If you put them side by side, compare the .40 cal. using 155 grain hollowpoints. They can do as much damage as a .357 magnum and you can get them into a lighter, more compact pistol.
I have fired a BERETTA 96D Brigadier at a measured 100 yards and hit a man sized silouette target.
The downside is that recoil can be severe in some guns. I sold my GLOCK 22 because of the recoil and only shot .40 in a SIG 229 and BERETTA 96. Then my agency switched to the H&K 2000 in .40 caliber. Recoil is about on par with a +P+ 9m.m. and reliability is excellent. It also cost $800.00, so it should be good!
Another reason to skip the .45ACP round is that I find the 1911 to large and I have not found them to be as reliable as a more modern gun like the GLOCK. Some of the newer 1911 models put out by KIMBER, PARA-ORDANCE and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY are great guns, but still too large and then cost as much or more than the already expensive H&K or SIG. GLOCK'S are much cheaper.
The .357 magnum is very effective, but has heavy recoil with the 125 grain hollowpoints which established this caliber with the police. Also, the handguns in this caliber are either too large and heavy for concealment like the S&W 686 or RUGER GP100 unless you use a wear a good holster/belt combination.
The 125 grain load is the one that many State Police and Highway Patrol agencies carry. It has proven very effective in the many fights it has been used in. The U.S. Border Patrol swore by it and they had more gunfights than any other federal agency.
I have carried the 125 grain load in my .357 magnum, but the recoil was hard on my hand and the flash could be seen at noon time in August.
Compact .357 magnums will be easier to conceal, but are very difficult for the average person to control with full power loads, like the 125 grain hollowpoint.
If you go with the .357 magnum, start with regular .38 Special loads, then try both +P .38 Specials and 110 grain .357 magnums. I found the 110 grain .357 magnums recoiled no more than the 158 +P lead hollowpoint that is frequently called the FBI load, Chicago load, Miami load and a couple of other names. The 110 grain load is also very effective and inexpensive if you buy the WINCHESTER white box loads at WALMART or sporting goods stores.
The 9m.m. is my all around choice. The 9m.m. +P hollowpoint ammo is nearly equal the .357 magnum 125 grain load. Yet it kicks quite a bit less. If you find the +P+ and +P loads to hard to control, use the regular 9m.m. hollow points. I like the FEDERAL and WINCHESTER 115 grain hollowpoints. They are inexpensive and accurate. The FEDERAL load has a proven track record with Police agencies.
You can get a 9m.m. in a compact, flat sided gun like the GLOCK 19, WALTHER P-99, H&K 2000 or SIG 228 or 229. These sort of guns can be concealed well with a good holster. They are large enough to give good control of the weapon and carry a large magazine.
The H&K with the LEM trigger and the SIG with the DAK trigger are outstanding.
I have found the grips on mini-guns like the GLOCK 26 to be to small to get a good grip. This makes controlling the gun harder and accuracy usually suffers.
On duty, I have to carry the H&K in .40 caliber. For a house gun, I will use BERETTA 92D Centurion or one of my concealed carry guns. I usually go with a GLOCK 19 or WALTHER P-99. when I am dressed to conceal a gun.
When I am exercising, I like something smaller and lighter. I usually end up with a snub barreled .38 Special loaded with 125 grain +P ammo. Not great if a fight developes, but adequate.
Never, ever use the Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) or ball ammo. It has been proven to overpenetrate a human body in most calibers. .38 Special, 9 m.m., .357 magnum or .45ACP, it does not matter which, it is likely to overpenetrate.
I do not worry about the FBI pentration requirement. That requirement was arrived at after 8 FBI agents nearly lost a gunfight with 2 criminals. Several law enforcement analysis after the gunfight listed a long series of errors made by the agents. The FBI preferred to blame lack of penetration by a 9m.m. bullet.
Whatever choice. Consider getting professional training. It really does help and you can also get some practical training like shoot/don't shoot and weapons retention. Also, if you go with a semi-auto, jam clearing training can save your life.
This has been my experience. I know some of the others have different ones.
Sandwich,
I would just try and use common sense.
Use the most powerful handgun than you can control and is within the size and cost goals you have set.
I would skip the .45ACP. I do not believe it can do anything that the .40S&W caliber cannot do if you use the right load. If you put them side by side, compare the .40 cal. using 155 grain hollowpoints. They can do as much damage as a .357 magnum and you can get them into a lighter, more compact pistol.
I have fired a BERETTA 96D Brigadier at a measured 100 yards and hit a man sized silouette target.
The downside is that recoil can be severe in some guns. I sold my GLOCK 22 because of the recoil and only shot .40 in a SIG 229 and BERETTA 96. Then my agency switched to the H&K 2000 in .40 caliber. Recoil is about on par with a +P+ 9m.m. and reliability is excellent. It also cost $800.00, so it should be good!
Another reason to skip the .45ACP round is that I find the 1911 to large and I have not found them to be as reliable as a more modern gun like the GLOCK. Some of the newer 1911 models put out by KIMBER, PARA-ORDANCE and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY are great guns, but still too large and then cost as much or more than the already expensive H&K or SIG. GLOCK'S are much cheaper.
The .357 magnum is very effective, but has heavy recoil with the 125 grain hollowpoints which established this caliber with the police. Also, the handguns in this caliber are either too large and heavy for concealment like the S&W 686 or RUGER GP100 unless you use a wear a good holster/belt combination.
The 125 grain load is the one that many State Police and Highway Patrol agencies carry. It has proven very effective in the many fights it has been used in. The U.S. Border Patrol swore by it and they had more gunfights than any other federal agency.
I have carried the 125 grain load in my .357 magnum, but the recoil was hard on my hand and the flash could be seen at noon time in August.
Compact .357 magnums will be easier to conceal, but are very difficult for the average person to control with full power loads, like the 125 grain hollowpoint.
If you go with the .357 magnum, start with regular .38 Special loads, then try both +P .38 Specials and 110 grain .357 magnums. I found the 110 grain .357 magnums recoiled no more than the 158 +P lead hollowpoint that is frequently called the FBI load, Chicago load, Miami load and a couple of other names. The 110 grain load is also very effective and inexpensive if you buy the WINCHESTER white box loads at WALMART or sporting goods stores.
The 9m.m. is my all around choice. The 9m.m. +P hollowpoint ammo is nearly equal the .357 magnum 125 grain load. Yet it kicks quite a bit less. If you find the +P+ and +P loads to hard to control, use the regular 9m.m. hollow points. I like the FEDERAL and WINCHESTER 115 grain hollowpoints. They are inexpensive and accurate. The FEDERAL load has a proven track record with Police agencies.
You can get a 9m.m. in a compact, flat sided gun like the GLOCK 19, WALTHER P-99, H&K 2000 or SIG 228 or 229. These sort of guns can be concealed well with a good holster. They are large enough to give good control of the weapon and carry a large magazine.
The H&K with the LEM trigger and the SIG with the DAK trigger are outstanding.
I have found the grips on mini-guns like the GLOCK 26 to be to small to get a good grip. This makes controlling the gun harder and accuracy usually suffers.
On duty, I have to carry the H&K in .40 caliber. For a house gun, I will use BERETTA 92D Centurion or one of my concealed carry guns. I usually go with a GLOCK 19 or WALTHER P-99. when I am dressed to conceal a gun.
When I am exercising, I like something smaller and lighter. I usually end up with a snub barreled .38 Special loaded with 125 grain +P ammo. Not great if a fight developes, but adequate.
Never, ever use the Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) or ball ammo. It has been proven to overpenetrate a human body in most calibers. .38 Special, 9 m.m., .357 magnum or .45ACP, it does not matter which, it is likely to overpenetrate.
I do not worry about the FBI pentration requirement. That requirement was arrived at after 8 FBI agents nearly lost a gunfight with 2 criminals. Several law enforcement analysis after the gunfight listed a long series of errors made by the agents. The FBI preferred to blame lack of penetration by a 9m.m. bullet.
Whatever choice. Consider getting professional training. It really does help and you can also get some practical training like shoot/don't shoot and weapons retention. Also, if you go with a semi-auto, jam clearing training can save your life.
This has been my experience. I know some of the others have different ones.
Autolycus
Member
Just get a .40 so you get the best of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. Its a good round with a large following.
critrxdoc
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 126
I probably don't need to tell you any of this as you probably already know, but anyway here is my 2cents:
.45 is a great caliber, but big and heavy in most platforms. You lose round count and ammo is expensive for practice rounds and defensive ammo. In a CCW package that is easy to conceal, a .45 is not going to give you many more rounds than a .357. I think I would rather try to conceal and carry a brick than a 1911, especially in warm weather.
.357 - incredible round. Used revovlers fit in your price range and you can practice with .38s as already mentioned. You only get 6 rounds in most platforms and ammo is expensive. Both .38s and .357s are pricey to practice with in comparison to both .40 and especially 9mm.
.40 - great round, although you said you have a bias against it. You would be looking at something used in your price range, but you could find it. You would have several options in a easy to conceal CCW. You should be able to find a used M&P, XD, glock or as you alluded to a ruger. The .40 is more expensive to practice with than 9mm, but cheaper than the other rounds discussed in WWWB value packs.
9mm - should be able to find something used in multiple platforms. Capacity in any of the polymers is better than any caliber. Rounds are the least expensive to practice with. Carry ammo is expensive, but hopefully you would only need to use a few hundred.
So given your criteria, I would look for a used 9mm after I went to the range and rented a handful and decided which platform I wanted. Good luck.
.45 is a great caliber, but big and heavy in most platforms. You lose round count and ammo is expensive for practice rounds and defensive ammo. In a CCW package that is easy to conceal, a .45 is not going to give you many more rounds than a .357. I think I would rather try to conceal and carry a brick than a 1911, especially in warm weather.
.357 - incredible round. Used revovlers fit in your price range and you can practice with .38s as already mentioned. You only get 6 rounds in most platforms and ammo is expensive. Both .38s and .357s are pricey to practice with in comparison to both .40 and especially 9mm.
.40 - great round, although you said you have a bias against it. You would be looking at something used in your price range, but you could find it. You would have several options in a easy to conceal CCW. You should be able to find a used M&P, XD, glock or as you alluded to a ruger. The .40 is more expensive to practice with than 9mm, but cheaper than the other rounds discussed in WWWB value packs.
9mm - should be able to find something used in multiple platforms. Capacity in any of the polymers is better than any caliber. Rounds are the least expensive to practice with. Carry ammo is expensive, but hopefully you would only need to use a few hundred.
So given your criteria, I would look for a used 9mm after I went to the range and rented a handful and decided which platform I wanted. Good luck.
Lonestar49
Member
That tears it.. LOL
...
With all the responses to get a 9mm, you've all convinced me to go out and buy "another" 9mm.. lol
But, I'd rather carry my 1911 Colt Defender 45 with 7 rounds and one back-up mag of 7 more rounds, than a brick..
Even today, 102 degrees here and still summertime..
lol
LS
...
With all the responses to get a 9mm, you've all convinced me to go out and buy "another" 9mm.. lol
But, I'd rather carry my 1911 Colt Defender 45 with 7 rounds and one back-up mag of 7 more rounds, than a brick..
Even today, 102 degrees here and still summertime..
lolLS
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GlenJ
Member
I vote for 9mm. Lot's of different loads and practice ammo is cheap.
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