"I am the only one in this room........"

[Gunnerpalace]

From the news report I read it was a Glock and he was trying to disassemble it,


You have to pull the trigger to disassemble right?

 

[jakemccoy]

From the news report I read it was a Glock and he was trying to disassemble it,


You have to pull the trigger to disassemble right?

Yes.

However, it's probably difficult to shoot yourself even while dissassembling a Glock in a drunken stupor. Every Glock owner knows you should check for a cleared chamber about three times after removing the magazine. It's like clockwork. A Glock is one of the simplest guns to operate, field strip and clean. Thus, it's not the gun; it's the idiot chief.

This chief (!) should not have been clearing a weapon with live ammo in front of a class. Assuming he ignores this seemingly obvious rule, he should have at least brushed up on basic field stripping a Glock before teaching the class.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Good enough for Baghdad, but not Juarez?

Officer Cesar Quitana patrols a dangerous barrio in Juarez, Mexico. He is armed with an M16 assault rifle -- a weapon that would be no match in a gunfight with drug lords.

"I think most of us feel scared just to bring this with us," he says, pointing to the rifle in the front seat of his patrol car. "But this is what we use to defend ourselves."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/26/gun.smuggling/index.html

Smugglers' deadly cargo: Cop-killing guns

updated 9:11 a.m. EDT, Wed March 26, 2008

By Drew Griffin and John Murgatroyd
CNN Special Investigations Unit

JUAREZ, Mexico (CNN) -- A deadly trade is occurring along the U.S. border with Mexico, federal officials say -- a flood of guns, heading south, used by drug thugs to kill Mexican cops.

In Mexico, guns are difficult to purchase legally. So, officials say, weapons easily purchased in the United States are turning up there.

"The same routes that are being used to traffic drugs north -- and the same organizations that have control over those routes -- are the same organizations that bring the money and the cash proceeds south as well as the guns and the ammunition," says Bill Newell, a special agent with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Police in Mexican border towns fear for their lives, and with good reason. Five high-ranking Mexican police officials have been killed this year in what Mexican officials say is an escalating war between police and drug cartels.

In Juarez, Mexico, just across the border from El Paso, Texas, a police commander was gunned down in front of his home. The weapon used to kill Cmdr. Francisco Ledesma Salazar is believed to have been a .50-caliber rifle. The guns are illegal to purchase in Mexico but can be obtained just north of the border at gun shows and gun shops in the United States.

ATF special agent Tom Mangan says the .50-caliber rifle has become one of the "guns of choice" for the drug cartels. The weapon fires palm-sized .50-caliber rounds that can cut through just about anything.

Mangan showed CNN the power of the rifle on a gun range near Phoenix, Arizona. The weapon, a Barrett, was seized in an ATF raid. A round fired from 100 yards away tore through a car door and both sides of a bulletproof vest like those used by Mexican police.

"There's nothing that's going to stop this round," Mangan says.

The rifle was intercepted as it was being smuggled into Mexico. Mangan says investigators believe four others already had passed through the border. Video Watch how the weapons fuel a little-known war »

The ATF has been trying to help Mexican police by cracking down on illegal purchases of guns and ammunition. Operation Gunrunner has led to several arrests and seizures of guns and ammo. But the operation has mainly shown just how big a problem exists, authorities say.

One recent seizure in a Yuma, Arizona, storage locker yielded 42 weapons and hundreds of rounds of .50-caliber bullets already belted to be fed into a machine gun-style weapon.

The guns confiscated included AK-47 rifles and dozens of Fabrique National pistols. The semiautomatic pistols fire a 5.7-by-28 millimeter round, which is technically a rifle round, according to the ATF. Newell says the round has a special nickname in Mexico. "It's called 'mata policias,' or 'cop killer,' " he says.

Mexican authorities along the border recently met with their counterparts in the United States, hoping more cooperation will lead to more arrests of criminals and fewer killings of Mexican police officers.

Guillermo Fonseca, Mexico's regional legal attaché for the West Coast, told CNN the violence in his country is "problem number 1" -- and police in his country are outgunned. Officers in Mexico lack heavy firepower, he says. With the presence of large-caliber weapons from the United States, drug cartels and criminals have the advantage in what he says is basically a war. Part of the solution, he says, is for the United States to give Mexico more information about who is selling these guns illegally in the United States. Then Mexico could go after the buyers.

"We have access to systems to trace guns that have been smuggled into Mexico, and that has worked very well," Fonseca told CNN. "We need more information about the people who are actually purchasing the guns. We need to prosecute those people, to convict those people. In our opinion, that's the next step we have to take."

Last year Mexican police confiscated 10,000 guns and $200 million in raids aimed at cracking down on border violence. Still, local police tread carefully, especially in neighborhoods controlled by the powerful drug cartels.
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Officer Cesar Quitana patrols a dangerous barrio in Juarez, Mexico. He is armed with an M16 assault rifle -- a weapon that would be no match in a gunfight with drug lords.

"I think most of us feel scared just to bring this with us," he says, pointing to the rifle in the front seat of his patrol car. "But this is what we use to defend ourselves."

 

[FCFC]

I don't think it's fair to accuse the poor man of violating that rule. The article said, in pretty clear English: "They said he was trying to fix a gun with a jammed round when the bullet fired." So my exceptional deductive powers lead me to conclude that unless he was eating breakfast at the time and was such a sloppy eater that he got jam on a crumpet, he knew the gun was loaded, observed that it had malfunctioned, and was doing what might be called "trying to fix a gun with a jammed round."

I see that, despite your exceptional deductive powers , the final results on this (see below) indicate that the chief did not not know his gun was loaded.

Of course there's no reason not to malign the fellow who shot himself. He got shot, we didn't, so we're obviously smarter than he is. Fair's fair.

Exactly! The idiot did in fact "shot himself."

Doesn't inspire confidence in the chief. I wonder who paid the medical bills for the chief? RPD? The good people of Riverdale, I'm sure.

Maybe the chief will sue somebody.






Riverdale police chief who shot himself cleared of criminal charges

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9852589
The Associated Press
07/12/2008

RIVERDALE - A police chief who accidentally shot himself in the ankle has been cleared of any criminal charges by the Weber County attorney.

County Attorney Mark DeCaria wrote in a letter that Police Chief Dave Hansen simply made a mistake when he shot himself in May during a concealed weapons permit class he was teaching. Hansen voluntarily surrendered his teaching license May 14.

"While witness accounts vary, it is my determination that no one (among the students) was in danger from this weapon," DeCaria's letter says.

"It is my belief that at no time did Chief Hansen knowingly handle a weapon that was loaded and ready to fire."

The bullet pierced Hansen's left calf and exited through the ankle. Hansen has returned to work but has needed two surgeries on the leg.

DeCaria said claims by some students that Hansen pointed the gun in the direction of students were not substantiated.

"That is somewhat in conflict, but the vast majority of people from the class who spoke to investigators said he never pointed the barrel toward the class," he said. "People say very clearly he never pointed the gun at anyone."

When Hansen attempted to disassemble the weapon to remove the barrel, the gun fired.

"It is my determination that there is no criminal conduct here and that this was an unfortunate accident," DeCaria wrote.

Riverdale Mayor Bruce Barrows said the incident has resulted in city policy changes, including no longer using live ammunition in firearms training except for shooting sessions at a shooting range.

"It agreed completely with what our internal investigation found, that it was an accident and obviously unfortunate," Burrows said of DeCaria's investigation.

Hansen said he's relieved he was cleared of any criminal behavior.

"And I apologize to the people upset by the incident. I would give anything to be able to reverse that moment when the gun went off."

The city issued Hansen a written reprimand.

 

[GRB]

Okay, so the chief had an accidental (as in not on purpose) negligent (as in it was his fault and not an act of a god/fate/karma/bad luck) discharge. (Yes note that there is a difference between accidental and negligent but not the one usually use don these forums, they are not opposites as would be accidental/purposeful or negligent/responsible.) Yes he was at fault for the accidental discharge. So now what - several of you find him to be an, an idiot, a buffoon, arrogant and comparable to the agent from DEA who shot himself? For all you know, this man was the most competent person with a firearm up until that one accident, and accident it was since it was not done on purpose. Now I see that as his fault, negligence on his part, but I do not see it as any reason to refer to him as any of the above derogatory terms as an overall reference to his competence level.

Are you all so perfect? Have any of you ever had an accident with a firearm? Think about it, I did not say accidental discharge, I said accident. Such as when you accidentally swept the line at the range, or accidentally pointed the gun at yourself, or pulled the trigger with no round in the chamber, or pulled the trigger with the safety on, or maybe even an accidental discharge that no one else witnessed? I wonder too, have you ever had an accident in a car. Cars are much more deadly than guns in the USA. Check the statistics as to how many are killed, maimed and seriously injured by cars as compared to firearms. Are you an idiot, a buffoon, arrogant and comparable to the agent from DEA who shot himself in your own mind’s eye? If not why not. Heck you must be perfect. I sure hope it is just that and not related to the fact that the man is a police officer; you see police officers are human too and make mistakes just like anyone else can make one.

Now that more of the facts are in, I fault him, I think he made a bad mistake, one he is paying for by way of the injury, by way of having surrendered his teaching license, by way of an official reprimand, and quite possibly will also suffer by way of lawsuit (you can bet some attorney is figuring an angle to get a student to sue him). All in all though, I think it was an unfortunate accident that he acted negligently and fired that shot. I do not think that necessarily makes him an idiot, I do not necessarily think that makes him a buffoon, I do not think it makes him arrogant by any stretch of the imagination (in fact he seems to be quite sorry and humble about it), I do not think it compares to the attitude of the DEA agent who shot himself. I do not think the incident necessarily gives you liberty to be arrogant in your appraisal of the officer, not if you are respectful of others. I do think it is a sad commentary on other gun owners that they think themselves so high and mighty that they believe something similar COULD ABSOLUTELY NEVER happen them. I guess though when it does happen to one or more of you, you will immediately come to these forums to report that yes indeed you have become an idiot, a buffoon, arrogant and comparable to the agent from DEA who shot himself. If not then you should either be dead, incapacitated in some manner, or you will just have proven yourself a hypocrite.

Respectfully,
Glenn B

 

[Funderb]

I hear glocks are rather bipolar at times.
poor chief couldn't see the signs and suffered the wrath of
an angry piece of plastic.

 

[neviander]

Accidents do happen.

 

[Mongrel]

Glenn,

I say with the utmost respect that I agree that things tend to get out of hand pretty quick on an internet forum. And the language used may get pretty frank or even course. So maybe 'we' had a bit of your post 'coming' for mouthing off in such a manner about this Chief.

I would caution however, against going too far in the other direction by playing the 'accident' card too hard.

My hope is that this type of event NEVER gets to the point of being even remotely acceptable. Sometimes we are so quick with our "to err is human" that we become complacent in respect to our own gun-handling practices.

This mentality is literally and figuratively *killing* our society on many levels. It starts with a failure to properly and FORCEFULLY discipline our young and leads to "Geez did you have to be so hard on him? He really didn't know it was loaded!"

I guarantee you, whether it was running with scissors or a loss of discipline on the firing line, my old man had ways of *driving home* the point so it didn't happen again.

Yes, accidents will certainly happen, but collectively *we* in this community of sportsmen and shooters must be vigilant not to slip when it comes to common sense and safety.

Lastly, just what the hell was he doing in a CLASSROOM with live ammo? Let alone LOADED in the weapon...

 

[FCFC]

My hope is that this type of event NEVER gets to the point of being even remotely acceptable. Sometimes we are so quick with our "to err is human" that we become complacent in respect to our own gun-handling practices.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. The Chief Hansen case is structurally the same as that of the DEA agent a couple of years ago. Teaching/lecturing situation, students, handling of a firearm as a demonstration, exposing students to a loaded weapon without their knowledge or consent and a self-inflicted wounding.

No need to diminish the seriousness of Hansens error. He was totally in the wrong.

This mentality is literally and figuratively *killing* our society on many levels. It starts with a failure to properly and FORCEFULLY discipline our young and leads to "Geez did you have to be so hard on him? He really didn't know it was loaded!"

True. It's amazing sometimes how partisans will be so unthinkingly biased to diminish the severity of grievous offenses by those in their reference groups. One example is the SC magistrate who gave up control of her carry gun and had her 4 year old granddaughter shoot herself with it. Some folks actually defend the woman, who got off with no charges whatsoever. She didn't mean to do it, of course.

In the Hansen case, there is sufficient reason to excoriate the man for his mistake. He was expertly qualified to do it right. More expert than most people here. Yet he endangered his students and shot himself.

Criticism of Hansen is not invalidated by the lack of perfection on the part of people who criticize him. To suggest it is a straw man.