I apologize in advance. ;-) .40 VS .45

[speaksoftly]

So I was looking up some data on rounds. I'm pretty much solely a .40 shooter but am about to purchase a new 1911 (probably a Kimber Pro Carry II). I was making comparisons between the .45 and .40 rounds and found some interesting data. I shoot/store Federal 155 grain hydra shock JHP in .40 and was looking to start obtaining the same in .45 ACP. Here's the data on the two rounds from the Federal website and it seemed a but funny to me. Thoughts?

Federal Hydra Shock .40 S&W 155 grain JHP ammo has a muzzle velocity of 1140 FPS and 445 ft/lbs of energy.

Federal Hydra Shock .45 ACP 230 grain JHP has a muzzle velocity of 900 FPS and 414 ft/lbs of energy.

How is this the case? Shouldn't the .45 be much higher in energy than the .40? Every .45 fan I've heard from over the years has made the .45 out to be vastly superior to the .40 and these tables are making it out to be inferior. I may be having a blonde moment here but what am I missing? Thanks

-Marcos

 

[wow6599]

The 45 runs about 21K psi and the 40 runs around 35K psi..........

 

[GLOOB]

You're comparing 155 grains to 230 grains. Energy is related to the square of velocity. So light weight bullets have an edge in energy.

Even in the same caliber, you'll find your 135 grain .40 loads have way more energy than the 180 grain ones.

The fairest energy comparison is the 180 grain .40 vs the 185 grain +P .45. So go look and tell us how that stacks up.

 

[speaksoftly]

.40 165 grain Velocity is 980 fps and ft/lbs is 352
.45 165 grain Velocity is 1060 fps and ft/lbs is 412

Still not very much of a difference. Especially when you consider that going with the .45 over .40 is often going to cut magazine capacity by 40-50%.

 

[wow6599]

That's why I brought up psi. Think 158 gr .38 Spl vs 158 gr .357 Mag.......higher psi = faster bullet = more energy.

 

[GLOOB]

There's a 165 grain .45 load? And it only goes 1060???

I like .40, too, but you're cherry picking bad data. A 185 gr .45 +P will go faster than that.

 

[wow6599]

Look up the .45 Super........higher psi. You will find the difference you're looking for.

 

[speaksoftly]

With all due respect, I'm not cherry picking anything. The data was on the ammunition manufactures website and seemed strange to me. Just curious about what I'm missing. Not a caliber war guy at all. To the contrary I comfortably and regularly trust my life to .380 and even drive a V6 pickup. ;-)

 

[matrem]

I'm a fan of both, and one or the other is usually not too far from my hand.
I look at it the same way I look at 12 & 20 ga shotgun loads.The 12 is better with everything else being equal, but there are plenty of 20 loads that equal or surpass some 12 loads.
And as wow said, there's a lot to be said for loading to a higher pressure.

 

[McCall911]

How is this the case? Shouldn't the .45 be much higher in energy than the .40?

Kinetic energy is calculated from the square of the velocity. Since many factory .40 S&W bullets have more velocity than .45 ACP bullets, you'll sometimes see this tendency, even though .45 ACP bullets are generally heavier.
But when it comes to terminal effectiveness, which is probably what you're interested in, kinetic energy tends to go down the tubes pretty quickly. This is especially true when you compare handgun bullets with rifle bullets. For instance, take the example of the .17 Remington. With a bullet weight of 25 grains and a muzzle velocity of 4000 fps, the little .17 will have a muzzle energy of 888 ft-lbs, which trumps both the .40 & the .45! But would you really want a .17 Remington for self-defense?
Didn't think so!

 

[918v]

With all due respect, I'm not cherry picking anything. The data was on the ammunition manufactures website and seemed strange to me. Just curious about what I'm missing. Not a caliber war guy at all. To the contrary I comfortably and regularly trust my life to .380 and even drive a V6 pickup. ;-)

Why didn't you compare a 185gr +P at 1150 FPS to that 155gr .40 load?

 

[CZ57]

It doesn't matter what two loads you are comparing. Muzzle energy is just half of the equation. You have to factor in Momentum as well. Greater momentum usually equates to better penetration. Looking at the 2 loads the OP mentioned you have:

1140 X 155 / 1000 = 176.7 Power factor i.e. momentum for the .40 S&W load.

900 X 230 / 1000 = 207 Power factor i.e. momentum for the .45 ACP load.

You can get a bit more technical but it's really not necessary. The higher velocity loads with lighter bullets may have greater Muzzle energy (as in the case of the 155 gr. .40 S&W load) whereas the slower heavier load may have greater Momentum.

Take the two hottest loads in each caliber and compare them.

1300 X 1300 X 135 / 450240 = 506.7 FT/Lbs of kinetic energy

1300 X 135 / 1000 = 175.5 Power Factor for the .40 S&W


1150 X 1150 X 185 / 450240 = 543.4 Ft/lbs of kinetic energy

1150 X 185 / 1000 = 212.75 Power Factor for the .45 ACP

Power Factor is also a determining factor in recoil and why the 230 gr. JHP is often favored in .45 ACP loads. It's momentum is nearly as high as the 185 +P but recoil and power factor are slightly less. This applies to all handgun cartridges but at some point you get to the point of diminishing returns where a bullet has too much Muzzle energy and the JHP acts more like an FMJ and passes through the target medium without as much expansion. This generally occurs at around 600 Ft/Lbs of energy and the reason why Magnum revolver rounds and the 10mm are often poorer stoppers when compared to the best stoppers in a given caliber such as the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

Take a look at your 9mm loads. The principles are the same when comparing except that a 124 gr. +P JHP round exhibits less kinetic energy vs a 115 gr. +P by a small margin but greater momentum than a 147 gr. JHP.

1300 X 1300 X 115 / 450240 = 431.66 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle energy For a 115 +P or +P+
1300 X 115 /1000 = 149.5 Power Factor

1250 X 1250 X 124 / 450240 = 430.33 Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy for a 124 +P

1250 X 124 / 1000 = 155 Power Factor

Comparing to a standard pressure 147 gr. JHP you get

980 X 980 X 147 /450240 = 313.56 Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy for a 147 gr. JHP

980 X 147 / 1000 = 144.1 Power factor The +P rounds are superior in both Muzzle energy and Momentum. Going to a 147 +P changes things dramatically.

So, to determine which is the best load you have to consider Momentum along with Kinetic Energy.

 

[Tacoma]

There's a 165 grain .45 load? And it only goes 1060???

and yet nobody has ever offered to stand in front of this wimpy round ;-)


Be careful of balistics and statistics, they can tell a slanted story.

 

[CZ57]

Be careful of balistics and statistics, they can tell a slanted story.

How so? When you are dealing with physics you are going with the best tool available to the ballistician.

 

[Walkalong]

.45 ACP, because I like it better, and no other reason.

.40 vs .45 or 9MM vs .40 threads or X vs Y threads are are silly.

 

[speaksoftly]

.45 ACP, because I like it better, and no other reason.

You're not alone in this logic to say the least.

.40 vs .45 or 9MM vs .40 threads or X vs Y threads are are silly.

Couldn't agree more. Honestly, this thread is more about my questions concerning the data than the rounds. I prefer .40 for self defense but honestly just want to get a 1911 or two to try out. I don't think that the 1911 is the most practical platform today but I certainly think they're among the most fun to shoot.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Hydrashoks are old technology. Not saying they won't do the job but there are better bullets out there today.

9mm vs. 40 vs. 45. Go shoot more to gain confidence in yourself rather than the bullet. Shot placement is everything.

 

[dnlgao]

I personally own a 9mm, for the fact that its cheaper to shoot, which means cheaper to practice ALOT with. thats key for me, being proficient enough to place my shots where they need to go. The fact that you can get 18-20 rounds of 9mm in a standard size pistol isnt bad either.

That aside, if i had to choose between the .40 and .45, as in my own experience, id choose the .45, simply because of the better feeling, and easier (for me) recoil. The .45 simply "pushes" me, as oppose to the snap of the .40.

.45 gets my vote

 

[easyg]

In comparable loads there is little difference between the .45ACP and the .40S&W....

Speer Gold Dot ammo:

.45ACP 185g shot from a 5" barrel:
muzzel velocity = 1050 fps.
muzzel energy = 453 ft.lbs.

.40S&W 180g shot from a 4" barrel:
muzzel velocity = 1025 fps.
muzzel energy = 420 fps.

The .45 load only edges the .40 load out by 23 ft.lbs. of energy, and that's most likely due to the longer barrel.
From equal length barrels they would most likely be just about equal.

Only with +P loads does the .45 actually surpass the .40S&W, given equal load weights.

So, IMO, there's just not enough difference to favor one over the other if you're looking at velocity and energy.


For me, the real difference is this....

With a .45 handgun one must work around the large .45 bullet.
Which means either a very large handgun with high capacity, or a smaller handgun with low capacity.

But with a .40 handgun I can have a smaller handgun and still have fairly high capacity.
For example, the Glock 27 offers me a handgun that is no bigger than the Glock 26 (9mm) pistol, yet it gives me 9+1 rounds of .40S&W (10+1 with a Pearce magazine extension).
I know of no .45 pistol of comparable size that offers the same capacity.

So by choosing a .40 caliber handgun, I get a gun that is smaller and fits my hand better, and one that still has pretty good capacity, and in a caliber that compares very favorably to the .45ACP.

 

[Guillermo]

and even drive a V6 pickup

WOW

 

[speaksoftly]

@Guillermo...I know right? And even better...it's a Toyota!

@MarshallDodge I've heard that before about HydraShoks. Why are they considered old technology and what would be considered "new technology"?

 

[Guillermo]

And even better...it's a Toyota!

*pst...don't tell anyone but I have a v-6 toyota too. And not even a Tacoma but an old T-100.*

 

[Harley Quinn]

I like them both, as neck downs...

40 necks down to 357 SIG, and 45 acp necks down to 400 Corbon

But then, I shoot them all

Regards

 

[soda]

.40 has more energy but, you got to love 230gr of good ole American .45