I could see Ruger Buying Mossberg...

[Solomonson]

If they ever have the opportunity (Mossberg is privately held), I would see Ruger buying Mossberg. Shotguns in one of the few places that Ruger doesn't have market presence. I suspect they want to be in the market, but fear Remington and Mossberg would tear their face off.

The combination of Ruger and Mossberg -- Rugberg?, Mossger?, would make for a formidable company...

 

[Mosin Bubba]

What makes you suspect that? They've never done anything more than dip their toes in with the Red Labels (and pulled them back out quickly).

Now if Ruger made some budget model, plastic "not-870", I could see it. But to my knowledge, they've never tried it once in the last half century.

 

[kozak6]

Nah, it's not their style. Ruger didn't buy Keltec before producing the LCP, after all (I almost wish they had!). If anything about the Mossberg 500 was even patentable, any patents would have expired a couple decades ago.

I think there's too much overlap in their product lines for it to work.

I've always thought it was strange that Ruger never bothered with a repeating shotgun.

 

[chicharrones]

Nah, it's not their style. Ruger didn't buy Keltec before producing the LCP, after all (I almost wish they had!). If anything about the Mossberg 500 was even patentable, any patents would have expired a couple decades ago.

I think there's too much overlap in their product lines for it to work.

I've always thought it was strange that Ruger never bothered with a repeating shotgun.

+1 here

 

[bassjam]

I don’t think Ruger has ever acquired another company that doesn’t seem to be their method. They have the resources that they could easily engineer their own shotguns if they wanted. But why bother? I don’t think the shotgun market is growing so they’d have to fight hard to get market share for little returns. On the other hand, the handgun and sporting rifle market is pretty hot right now and that’s clearly where they focus because that's where the best ROI is.

Heck, even Mossberg had to venture outside of shotguns in recent years, I doubt there’s much money to be made in shotguns right now. Publicly traded companies always want to grow their product lines, flat sales don't help with that.

 

[Solomonson]

I don’t think Ruger has ever acquired another company that doesn’t seem to be their method. They have the resources that they could easily engineer their own shotguns if they wanted. But why bother? I don’t think the shotgun market is growing so they’d have to fight hard to get market share for little returns. On the other hand, the handgun and sporting rifle market is pretty hot right now and that’s clearly where they focus because that's where the best ROI is.

Heck, even Mossberg had to venture outside of shotguns in recent years, I doubt there’s much money to be made in shotguns right now. Publicly traded companies always want to grow their product lines, flat sales don't help with that.

It hasn't been up to this point. Even though they could build a shotgun, I seriously doubt they could put much of a dent into the market which is largely controlled by Remington and Mossberg. Their traditional strength -- investment casting, also wouldn't be a huge advantage when making shotguns.

Why bother? Because a lot of shotguns are sold in the USA. I'm sure Mossberg and Remington are doing quite well in these markets.

However as Mossberg continues to expand, increasing overlap between the two companies, any potential buy-out or merger seems less likely.

 

[Solomonson]

Nah, it's not their style. Ruger didn't buy Keltec before producing the LCP, after all (I almost wish they had!). If anything about the Mossberg 500 was even patentable, any patents would have expired a couple decades ago.

I think there's too much overlap in their product lines for it to work.

I've always thought it was strange that Ruger never bothered with a repeating shotgun.

Nah, poor analogy. Keltec doesn't dominate any single market like Mossberg and Remington so. Ruger has long been content to simply copy George Kelgren's designs.

Besides, even if they bought Keltec, they likely wouldn't get Kelgren and he's the genius behind their designs.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Don't see it happening but Ruger did really want that new patent that made it possible to use AR magazines in a bolt action rifle. They spent a lot of money trying to do it on their own but in the end could not do it.

 

[1KPerDay]

Ruger has done a few things that I would consider strange or unnecessary, but they keep doing them and keep having success... who thought the market needed another 1911? Ruger did. Who thought the market needed another AR-15, particularly from one of the few companies that sells an alternative 5.56 platform? Ruger did. I wonder if the profit margin is just not there with cheap pump shotguns. I wouldn't be surprised if in some Hangar 18 in AZ there's some Ruger black ops dudes working on a repeating scattergun.

 

[Solomonson]

Ruger has done a few things that I would consider strange or unnecessary, but they keep doing them and keep having success... who thought the market needed another 1911? Ruger did. Who thought the market needed another AR-15, particularly from one of the few companies that sells an alternative 5.56 platform? Ruger did. I wonder if the profit margin is just not there with cheap pump shotguns. I wouldn't be surprised if in some Hangar 18 in AZ there's some Ruger black ops dudes working on a repeating scattergun.

I think the 1911 was a given for Ruger given their vast investment casting resources. They're simply able to build a good gun less expensively. I really don't know how Ruger's AR15 is doing -- but they fact they offer one (along with stripped lowers and fully built-up lower assemblies) makes me think they looked at the market hard and want a big chunk of it.

Pump shotguns would have slim margins -- but certainly no slimmer than AR15s. I think unless a manufacturer comes up with something truly innovative (ala Benelli), they're doomed to eat Remington's and Mossberg's dust in that market. Further, Ruger
s strengths in investment casting would not be a huge advantage in that market.

I strongly agree -- Ruger has people working on shotguns. If they could come out with something like Benelli without impinging on their patent, I'm sure they would.

 

[Solomonson]

Don't see it happening but Ruger did really want that new patent that made it possible to use AR magazines in a bolt action rifle. They spent a lot of money trying to do it on their own but in the end could not do it.

Who did they license the patent from? Mossberg?

Ruger has never been a huge innovator. An excellent copier/improver though.

 

[hdwhit]

Solomonson wrote:
I could see Ruger Buying Mossberg...

Not something I had thought about before, but you are right that there are some obvious synergies.

I would think they would initially want to keep Mossberg a separate company since the name is still synonymous with the Model 500 pump shotgun and that's too much market value to quickly discard, but there are lots of opportunities to rationalize the overlapping parts of the product line(s).

 

[Solomonson]

Not something I had thought about before, but you are right that there are some obvious synergies.

I would think they would initially want to keep Mossberg a separate company since the name is still synonymous with the Model 500 pump shotgun and that's too much market value to quickly discard, but there are lots of opportunities to rationalize the overlapping parts of the product line(s).

Indeed -- plus Mossberg is privately held, so I doubt it's for sale. Then again who knows what sort of interest a huge chunk of Ruger stock would bring, etc.

One thing that is changing is that Mossberg is branching out so there is more overlap which makes the possibility of a deal less attractive.

 

[hdwhit]

kozak6 wrote:
I think there's too much overlap in their product lines for it to work.

I'm not so sure. Mossberg has shotguns while Ruger has none. Ruger has numberous pistols while Mossberg has only an AR built as a pistol. Mossberg has a lever action rifle while Ruger has none. The Mossberg's ARs aren't materially different from the Ruger ARs, so that leaves just the .22s and the center-fire bolt actions.

 

[hdwhit]

Solomonson wrote:
One thing that is changing is that Mossberg is branching out so there is more overlap which makes the possibility of a deal less attractive.

If I were a member of the Mossberg family with my secure "cash cow" in the quintessential pump shotgun and I was having fun playing with the rest of the line-up, there's no amount of Ruger stock that could make me call it quits.

I don't see the Mossberg rimfires as competetive with the Ruger American Rimfire and the 10/22 and believe they could be jettisoned without any problem. The Mossberg center-fire bolt guns have some interesting features the combined company could incorporate into new and improved products but on their own, I don't see that they speak to the market any more persuasively than the Ruger bolt guns so one line or the other could be discontinued with appropriate inventives to potential customers to chose the surviving line until the newly developed combined line was available.

The more I thought about it, Solomonson, the more attractive I thought your idea became.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

Ruger has done a few things that I would consider strange or unnecessary, but they keep doing them and keep having success... who thought the market needed another 1911? Ruger did. Who thought the market needed another AR-15, particularly from one of the few companies that sells an alternative 5.56 platform? Ruger did. I wonder if the profit margin is just not there with cheap pump shotguns. I wouldn't be surprised if in some Hangar 18 in AZ there's some Ruger black ops dudes working on a repeating scattergun.

It's kind of crazy what Ruger has been doing. Firearms are an extremely mature, saturated market where there's just not much room for new products. But almost everything they've introduced in the last few years has succeeded, even products that had no business making it like their AR and 45.

I'd say that right now, Ruger has a better read on the gun market than any other manufacturer. If they aren't making a shotgun then they probably have a reason for it.

 

[Solomonson]

If I were a member of the Mossberg family with my secure "cash cow" in the quintessential pump shotgun and I was having fun playing with the rest of the line-up, there's no amount of Ruger stock that could make me call it quits.

That could be very short-sighted too. For one thing Ruger (or another company) could simply offer them too good of a deal to pass up. There's also the threat of future competition. If Ruger did commit to get in the pump/semi-atuo shotgun market in a big way, it would most certainly have a deleterious impact on Mossberg.

I don't see the Mossberg rimfires as competetive with the Ruger American Rimfire and the 10/22 and believe they could be jettisoned without any problem. The Mossberg center-fire bolt guns have some interesting features the combined company could incorporate into new and improved products but on their own, I don't see that they speak to the market any more persuasively than the Ruger bolt guns so one line or the other could be discontinued with appropriate inventives to potential customers to chose the surviving line until the newly developed combined line was available.

The more I thought about it, Solomonson, the more attractive I thought your idea became.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Who did they license the patent from? Mossberg?

Ruger has never been a huge innovator. An excellent copier/improver though.

I don't really follow bolt guns, not my thing but from what I've heard second hand is they did not and went with their own magazine. They just could not make it work and of course were immediately criticized for using their own magazine as though it was intentional. If I'm wrong about that someone please correct me.

 

[chicharrones]

Ruger has never been a huge innovator. An excellent copier/improver though.

That's why it's not Ruger's style to buy up other companies. They can make it themselves with their own resources if they want to.

 

[CraigC]

Ruger doesn't need to buy anybody. If they wanted to build a pump shotgun, they'd have done it years ago. Whole lot easier to tool up for something new than to acquire another company, along with their baggage and debt. And for what, to build $200 pump shotguns???

What makes you suspect that? They've never done anything more than dip their toes in with the Red Labels (and pulled them back out quickly).

How do you figure that? They made the Red Label for over 30yrs.

Ruger has never been a huge innovator. An excellent copier/improver though.

Really? The Standard Auto which started their business was an original design. Bill Ruger modernized and resurrected the single action revolver with the Single Six, eliminating all of the Colt's flaws. All of Ruger's double actions are original designs, completely eliminating all of S&W's shortcomings. They revolutionized manufacturing with their investment casting. Anybody who thinks Ruger hasn't innovated, hasn't been paying much attention and desperately needs to pick up a book. Are all their designs 100% original? No but nobody else's are either. Like everybody else, they take what they can use (that isn't patented) and go from there. William Mason designed and patented the ejector on the original 1860 Richards-Mason cartridge conversion, w hich also found its way on the SAA, which he also designed from the ground up. Virtually every single action revolver on the market uses the same design of ejector. Is Freedom Arms accused of ripping off William Mason (Colt)?

Ruger has long been content to simply copy George Kelgren's designs.

Besides, even if they bought Keltec, they likely wouldn't get Kelgren and he's the genius behind their designs.

Designs? You mean the single model that the LCP is similar to? Why don't we hear this about the S&W Bodyguard .380, which happens to be built EXACTLY the same way? The LCP just resembles the Keltec on the outside and that's the reason for this nonsense. If Kelgren was so smart, he would've patented his design. You mean the way everybody has copied John Browning's designs? Or those of Gaston Glock? Paul Mauser? Everything is based on something but apparently this discussion is nothing more than superficial gun shop banter. Keep it going, it's always interesting to hear from the armchair quarterbacks who know better how to run a multi-million dollar corporation better than those who actually do.

 

[GRIZ22]

No sense in Ruger buying Mossberg. There are plenty of shotguns out on the market now. Mossberg is holding it's own against Chinese pump shotguns that are being sold with US names. Lower end Mossbergs may be only $20-30 more than a Chinese shotgun but that makes a difference to some people. The NEF and Stevens Chinese shotguns I've seen are pretty decent utility grade guns IMO.

 

[JohnBiltz]

No sense in Ruger buying Mossberg. There are plenty of shotguns out on the market now. Mossberg is holding it's own against Chinese pump shotguns that are being sold with US names. Lower end Mossbergs may be only $20-30 more than a Chinese shotgun but that makes a difference to some people. The NEF and Stevens Chinese shotguns I've seen are pretty decent utility grade guns IMO.

Nothing complicated about a pump shotgun, which is its main virtue. Been around for over 100 years.

 

[Solomonson]

Designs? You mean the single model that the LCP is similar to? Why don't we hear this about the S&W Bodyguard .380, which happens to be built EXACTLY the same way? The LCP just resembles the Keltec on the outside and that's the reason for this nonsense. If Kelgren was so smart, he would've patented his design. You mean the way everybody has copied John Browning's designs? Or those of Gaston Glock? Paul Mauser? Everything is based on something but apparently this discussion is nothing more than superficial gun shop banter. Keep it going, it's always interesting to hear from the armchair quarterbacks who know better how to run a multi-million dollar corporation better than those who actually do.

No need to get defensive. Ruger (including the MKI .22) has long been a copier, not an innovator. That's not debatable.

 

[Solomonson]

No sense in Ruger buying Mossberg. There are plenty of shotguns out on the market now. Mossberg is holding it's own against Chinese pump shotguns that are being sold with US names. Lower end Mossbergs may be only $20-30 more than a Chinese shotgun but that makes a difference to some people. The NEF and Stevens Chinese shotguns I've seen are pretty decent utility grade guns IMO.

Lots of sense in buying Mossberg -- if Mossberg was for sale and the price is right. Mossberg (along with Remington) is a dominant player in the pump and S/A shotgun market. They ship hundreds of thousands of units each year. Ruger has zero presence in this large market. None. Were they to buy Mossberg, they would be buying good enough shotgun designs and a huge chunk of market share.

That would make a HUGE amount of sense -- if Mossberg was for sale and the price is right.

 

[Solomonson]

Ruger doesn't need to buy anybody. If they wanted to build a pump shotgun, they'd have done it years ago. Whole lot easier to tool up for something new than to acquire another company, along with their baggage and debt. And for what, to build $200 pump shotguns???...

I don't think Ruger would have done it years ago -- particuarly given their performance in shotguns thus far. Had they tried, I suspect they would be a tiny player, way behind Mossberg and Remington.

It's ignorant to equate buying Mossberg to buying a design or a factory. It would be about buying established market share and a name that's largely celebrated in the shotgun world.

One of the things that would make Mossberg so attractive is that it doesn't have the baggage or debt of a Remington or a Colt...