I don't get loaded chamber indicators

[ApacheCoTodd]

I "get" them and use them... often.

EVERY SINGLE TIME that my 230SL comes out of the holster, I run my finger over the indicator-extractor.

You just never know and I don't have to pull the slide and look down.

Walther? Same thing except my thumb.

Det1 Kimber - every time I have the visibility, I look in the indicator slot.

There are a few more around here that it is second nature to feel them if one can or look at the if one must and is able to.

I could subscribe to the "always loaded..", "they're mine and no one else touches them..." or something along those lines but from experience, I know full well that I know for certain... right up until I don't.

I spent a career getting home behind successful firearms manipulation and know that, at best, "I think it's loaded", treat it as such but confirm every single time.

I can't begin to guess how many times I've drawn a M-16, CAR-15 or M-4 bolt a tad... just in case. I would love a non-interference indicator on them.

As far as the concept is concerned LAWYERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT so don't let that bias get in the way of using them and appreciating them.

It's not like they're S&W frame locks.


Todd.

 

[Schlegel]

The LCI does NOT tell you the chamber is loaded with a live round.

Not having a LCI doesn't tell you that either.

IMO, people look at it backwards. The protruding LCI only means something is in the chamber, yes. For safety, we assume it is a live round. What a LCI really does is tell you when indicating empty "I must make the gun ready if I intend to use it". Not "assume it is empty and can't fire accidentally", if you see the difference. It lets you prioritize your actions. The LCI is a readout. We can't just assume the readout is identical to reality, but it can still be used as a guide.

Imagine a car with no fuel gauge, only a low fuel light. Would it be better to not even have that? I don't think so.

It may introduce complexity, but for the Walther PP series they appear to fail very, very, very rarely. even if the spring is weak or removed the gun will operate properly.

 

[Shaq]

I have no use for them either. I don't mind the type (Glocks) that don't add any parts--levers, springs or pins. I'd never have a house or defensive pistol like the XD's that has an extra hook, spring & pin....more parts=more chance for malfunction.

 

[matrem]

Shaq,
So if my XD LCI breaks, the pistol won't work?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I like indicators but can operate completely fine without them.

Basic firearms safety should always be implemented, indicators just require much less effort. It can even be done at a glance from a distance, without ever even having to pick up the gun.

My HD/bedside pistol has a LCI and a cocked indicator.

 

[v35]

I don't get safeties either

... but that's just me.

 

[orionengnr]

Something that nearly everyone has overlooked is the fact that, like any mechanical device, the LCI can fail.
One...the piece that touches the cartridge can wear or break, giving a "false negative". For someone depending on the LCI, this is a hazardous situation.
Two...the piece can cause malfunctions on its own (more on this later). An even more (potentially) hazardous situation, if this is a carry gun.

If I was a Tactical trained Ninja Seal I could see where it could be handy to see if my gun had a round in the chamber.

If you were a tactical trained Navy SEAL, you would know the status of your weapon. Period. End of story.

If loaded chamber indicators create one more safe shooting "pro gun good guy", or prevent one accidental shooting from an inexperienced gun handler, I'm all for em.

If draining every swimming pool in America and filling them all with cement, saved "just one life", would you be "all for that" too? That is known as a logical fallacy, and libs use that type of argument all the time.

I also like the indicator on my Ruger Mk III pistols, to make sure a round loaded when I release the bolt in competition and assume the low-ready postion (sic).

Funny you should mention the MkIII. I have read more than one person who had malfunctions directly attributable to the LCI. I had a MkIII briefly. The combination of the mag safety, the LCI and the ILS (and the fact that I already owned a MkII) convinced me that I could live without it. Sure was purty, but I don't miss it one bit. A friend still has it and likes it just fine. To each his own.

It's not like they're S&W frame locks.

Actually, they are a lot like S&W locks. In most cases, additional parts that are not necessary to the function of the firearm, that may add a false sense of security and may introduce problems that would not otherwise exist.

Excluding the ginormous loaded chamber indicator on the Ruger SR pistols, please explain to me how knowing whether a round is chambered is bad?

Please see above. The possibility exists that half of what you "know" is wrong, and the other half is half wrong.

Now, the drilled hole or slotted viewing port...okay, in daylight conditions. No moving parts, no harm, but on the other hand, useless in low light. But to be honest, I never use it---and exactly how difficult is a press check, anyway?

 

[rcmodel]

As already stated above.
You can't blame it on lawyers.

You can blame it on Germans, who were putting them on Lugers and Walther PPK's before WWII, and on the famous P-38 during the war.

It started with the P-08 Luger extractor LCI in WWI. (Geladen!)

I don't see that they hurt anything.
And the tactile feel when something goes bump in the dark was probably a comfort to some German in a foxhole more then once.

I can take them or leave them.

But I don't get my panties in a wad because my WWI and WWII German pistols have one.

rc

 

[springer99]

Have a loaded chamber indicator on my M9, but I ignore it and never even check it. Pull the slide back slightly and look. That always works for me.

Had a loaded chamber indicator on my Ruger MkIII target pistol. It caused me problems with jamming during ejection so I removed it. Much better functioning that way, and easier to keep clean.

Goofy lawyers at work, that's all.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I really like the Ruger SR series, but talk about an obnoxious LCI. Its a giant red flag that says "loaded when up", lol!

The Walther PPX's have a tiny little peephole in the back of the chamber hood, so if you see brass, its loaded, lol.

 

[ants]

rc model brings up a good point, the Germans had them on pistols in both WWI and WWII.

And they lost both wars!!!

So you and I need to get rid of them or we will lose the next World War for sure!

Holy Crap! I got some smithin' to do...

 

[PzGren]

You can blame it on Germans, who were putting them on Lugers and Walther PPK's before WWII, and on the famous P-38 during the war.

It started with the P-08 Luger extractor LCI in WWI. (Geladen!)

I don't see that they hurt anything.
And the tactile feel when something goes bump in the dark was probably a comfort to some German in a foxhole more then once.

I can take them or leave them.

But I don't get my panties in a wad because my WWI and WWII German pistols have one.

The P.08 had the LCI simply because of accidents having happened, particularly with the police pistols, which consequently got another extra safety for that, the Schiwy- Sicherung. The P.08 can fire when the upper is separated from the frame and the triggger bar is being pushed.

 

[gotboostvr]

The only loaded chamber indicator I trust is when I preform a brass check.

When it's things like a raised external extractor, or a slot at the base of the chamber like my Kimber, I don't mind them since they're so unobtrusive.

When's there's little pegs and tabs that poke out, I'm annoyed, but it's not a deal breaker by any means unless it's really poorly designed.

 

[Fast Frank]

All the above posts and arguments are proof positive that my reason for not liking loaded chamber indicators is true.

Loaded chamber indicators lead people to believe that it's O.K. to skip looking into the chamber to verify that the gun is safe.

I'm sorry, but that silly idea is going to get somebody shot.

I will continue to always clear my weapon and look into the chamber to verify that it is safe before handling or handing a gun to somebody else.

I believe loaded chamber indicators are dangerous, and are a bad idea.

 

[ants]

I'm sorry, but that silly idea is going to get somebody shot.

I will continue to always clear my weapon and look into the chamber to verify that it is safe before handling or handing a gun to somebody else.

Me too, I will continue to clear my weapon and look into chamber to verify. No argument on that.

This post is not meant to hurt anyone.


But I challenge the assertion: "I'm sorry, but that silly idea [LCI] is going to get somebody shot."

Since they have been on millions of guns since 1898, tell us how many times it has happened so far?

It hasn't.

I'm not challenging the assertion that a visual chamber check is a good idea. We agree on that.
But I will challenge the assertion that blood will run in the streets. No, it doesn't.

 

[Shaq]

Shaq,
So if my XD LCI breaks, the pistol won't work?

Depends how it breaks. If I recall correctly, the XD uses a hook like the extractor that has to grab the cartridge's rim to cause the LCI to protrude. If the hook chips it may prevent the slide from fully closing which would prevent the gun from firing since it would be out of battery. Or, if a piece of the hook ends up in the chamber, the gun wouldn't fire. That type of LCD design adds at least three parts, including a spring to allow the LCI to return to it's position flush with the slide. The Glock's LCI is simply a raised area on the extractor - no extra parts. Also preferable is a tiny hole in the top of the chamber so the loaded round is visible.

 

[reverseturn]

Loaded chamber indicator are a good idea.

Frankly I'm baffled by the hostility to loaded chamber indicators. I agree with previous posters that is either neutral or a good thing.

Consider the possibility that a gun was "unloaded" incorrectly.
Either by doing the sequence out of order, racking the slide then dropping the magazine or by only dropping the magazine. For arguments sake assume this happens 1 in a thousand times. Distraction or complacency being the culprit.

Which situation is more likely to lead to an unintended discharge

1. I thought I unloaded the gun correctly I dont have an LCI so I pull the trigger.
2. I thought I unloaded the gun and by uncommon chance (unheard of perhaps) my LCI broke in a way that says it is unloaded, so I pull the trigger
3. I thought I unloaded the gun but the LCI correctly indicates I failed to do so.
If I notice I don't pull the trigger.

1 and 2 have the same odds of unintinded firing. With 3 I have better odds I notice the gun is still loaded and not pull the trigger. I am never worse off by having the LCI and likely better off.

 

[GBExpat]

Welcome to THR, reverseturn!

Frankly I'm baffled by the hostility to loaded chamber indicators. ...

There is always a small percentage of the members here (not always the same people), like in all other internet forums, who get themselves spun-up over some of the silliest things.

I expect that some, later, look back on such things and wonder why they allowed themselves to get so agitated.

I know that *I* have, on occasion.

 

[Robbins290]

I have a lci on a mass compliant p220. It just has a hole. I ignore it and do a brass check. My glock which is my current cc weapon has one on the extractor (i think). I never use it. Again. I do a brass check everytime it goes on my hip. I dont have a problem with the ones on my pistols. But the ones of the rugers are horrible

 

[MAKster]

Georg Luger put one on the Luger pistol (designed in 1898), a tab with the word "Geladen" which means Loaded in German.

The first Walther P38 pistols had a loaded chamber indicator in 1938, a button on top of the slide that popped up when a round was in the chamber. During WWII it was eliminated to speed up production.


Love it or hate it, some of the world's best gun designers invented it. Can't blame it on anyone else.

So Hillary used a time machine to go back to 1898 to force Luger to install a LCI on his pistol. It all makes sense now.

 

[RainDodger]

Total non-issue and it could be useful sometime. My CZ 75 Compact PCR has a small pin that protrudes from the top of the slide. Easily felt with a finger in the dark. Might be glad it's there someday, who knows.

 

[arspeukinen]

Torx all the way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GBExpat]

My first bottom-feeder, PPK/s purchased in 1975, sported an LCI. I found it mildly handy to be able, by touch alone (even when holstered), to determine whether or not there was a round in the chamber.

LCIs, like decockers, have never made it to my Required Feature list for pistols, though.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Let see here...Loaded chamber indicator on my Kimber...Hummmm...Must be that real fine cut on top of the barrel up against the bolt face. Hell!! Ya need a bright flashlight to see if it's loaded.

Much simpler to do a partial slide rack to check for loaded chamber.

What good are they? Not much. Besides...If the hammer is cocked and the safety is on you can bet the chamber is loaded.

 

[Schlegel]

All the above posts and arguments are proof positive that my reason for not liking loaded chamber indicators is true.

Loaded chamber indicators lead people to believe that it's O.K. to skip looking into the chamber to verify that the gun is safe.

Who said this? No one has said to assume the gun is really unloaded. As I indicated above, I use it the opposite way from what you postulate. I don't use it to assume "safe" I use it to assume "not ready to use". Those are not the same thing.

And reading the responses that's pretty much universal. look at when people say they like the LCI. It's when they are thinking " I hope the gun is already loaded". Not one person said "yeah, I just feel the LCI and start dry-firing"

I verify empty identically for w/wo LCI.