I hate sidesaddles....

[357wheelgunner]

My Problem:
I have had a 6 shot sidesaddle on my 20" 870 police for some time now. The other week I picked up a mint '70s wingmaster riotgun, configured exactly like my 870 Police (20" IC rifle sight barrel, 8 shot magazine tube). The wingmaster felt so lively and balanced in my hands, while my police felt dull and unbalanced. I realized that the main reason for this was the stupid sidesaddle I stuck on the 870 police. The sidsaddle pretty much doubles the thickness of the reciever and adds a lot of weight to the middle of the shotgun. If you dont believe me shoulder your shottie a few times with the sidesaddle on, then take it off and try it....you may be surprised. I don't know how so many can advocate these things for anything but a 3 gun match. One of a shotgun's best qualities is it's exquisite balance, why would you throw that away for 6 more shells you don't need?

I do believe in keeping a few spare shells on a home defense shotgun, but not for "tactical" reloading. I keep the shells on the stock so that I can download the magazine to save the spring. I keep 5 shells in the 7 shot tube, this not only saves room but leaves me room to select load a couple slugs if necessarry.

My Solution:
870 Wingmaster: I have contacted a local saddle shop and they are going to fit a nice leather buttcuff with 5 shell loops to my stock, that will attach with lace around the bottom of the buttcuff. This will put the weight of the spare shells to the back of the gun, which will balance out the shells in the mag extension. Only going to cost me $30, and will sure look nice with the wood and bluing.
870 Police: this weapon has not-so-nice solid walnut stocks. I drilled and counterbored 2 holes in from the left side of the stock, that match the holes for the pins that hold the trigger assembly into the reciever. Then I mounted my 6 shot sidesaddle on the stock. Very very solid and stable, I could not believe it. However the sixth shell bumped into my wrist while I shouldered the weapon. So a 4 shot sidesaddle is on the way. I'll post pics of my shotguns as soon as I get a buddy's digi cam over here.

As for the responses I'll get about how "un-tactical" it is to not have the spare shells on the reciever, for faster reloading in anti-ninja/zombie situations, if I burn through all 8 rounds of OO buck in the mag tube, and the spare slugs on the stock, it must be my day to go. Not if but when the ninjas and zombies attack, I'll reattach my 6 shot sidesaddle to the the reciever and have 10 spare rounds! That will show those sneaky ninjas....

 

[LoadedDrum]

Strangely enough, I have found my self pondering exactly the same thing with the exact same model guns. I own an 870P with the 8rd extension and a side saddle. The gun feels heavy in comparison to the 1970's wing master with no extension or saddle that I keep finding my self drawn to at the gun store. I tried experimenting with just removing the extension and felt the small increase in weight was justified by being able to store the gun with more rounds in the mag and reduced muzzle climb. I never tried taking off the saddle, but I will now that you brought it up. I right now do not think the gun is that bad, even with everything on it, but it has been a while since I tried the gun with out it. My father picked up the gun for the first time after I added the mods and the first thing he said was "Is this thing getting heavier?". Having never even shot the gun, he said he would prefer a lighter gun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

That's a reasoned and reasonable approach to the decision, no arguments from me on leaving off the sidesaddle in preference to a butt mounted carrier if that's what you like better. You don't have to build your scattergun to make me happy, you have to use what works for you.

The leather buttcuff is a better idea as buttcuffs go, I saw pics of one for the first time in Mel Tappan's _Survival Guns_ back in the '70s.

No flames about giving up your tacticality from here...

lpl/nc

 

[BusMaster007]

Good Topic, probably with a lot of different answers to it.

When I bought a 12-ga. pump shotgun, I chose a Remington 870 Express Super Magnum.
My autoloader is a Beretta 1201FPG3.
Both have the SideSaddle on them ( the Benelli 90 is the one that fits the Beretta ).

I bought the 870 to be as versatile a gun as I could get, so I bought both the 4 and 6 shot 'saddles'.
The 870 can be configured in so many ways with all the accessories available, a case can be made for almost anything you want to hang on it.
I even got a Millett scope mount and Nikon Turkey scope for it...even though I haven't yet figured out how to mount that AND the SideSaddle together.


For someone wanting to have few rounds of extra ammo onboard a shotgun with a plugged magazine, the SideSaddle affords that option.

For someone who perceives a need to keep as many rounds IN and ON the gun, including a 15-round sling ( you bet I got one of those, too! ), then the option is there for a potent 'grab & go' firearm.

For someone who may have other needs, but doesn't want the extra weight of 4 or 6 rounds on the gun...leave the SideSaddle EMPTY.
That way it's there if you need it, but not messing up the balance of the gun.
This might be a consideration if you don't want to disassemble and reassemble the gun.

 

[HSMITH]

One question regarding the butt cuff: What are you going to do if you ever need to use that shotgun and the situation/cover demands that you shoot it from your weak side?

 

[El Tejon]

HSMITH, angle the weapon when shooting from off side. However, I don't like that position doesn't feel stable and I always end up giving myself a jaw noogie sometimes (like the half-nutcracker choke in BJJ).

Glad you found a system you like. Whatever you use, practice, practice, practice.

 

[Gordon]

Well I beg to differ - a little. I have a Milt Sparks leather butt cuff from the early 80's which when laced onto the butt of a shottie and full of shells gives me a slower mount with more moving mass to stop on shoulder sweet spot. I was shown how to rock gun up from low ready to help, but it is NOT lively.
A gun with a non extended mag IS more lively, no doubt. With a side saddle you can shoot from the left shoulder if need be (ie turning corners ect) which with an off side butt cuff is awkward. Lastly if weight has to be put on the gun, the balance point is the spot to do it, and that is where the side saddle mounts.
My new Bennelli nova will not have side saddles or ny thing attached , and I may not even put the +2 mag extension on, it IS lively as it sits now, and I can throw on a Bandolier if I want to carry more shells!

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things.....

My oldest 870 is the HD dedicated longarm here. It has a 5 round S/S.

5? Yes, it was a six rounder that I trimmed to get it under the peep base.

While this one is on the heavy side with its extension, it kicks little and under a little stress is quite manageable by Yr Humble Scrivener. YMMV.

My other "Serious" 870 is similar except it has a 20" barrel vs the 18" on my oldest, a three round extension and no S/S.

I could probably feel a difference in handling if I looked for it. I doubt I will, though.The secret to handling heavy shotguns is frequent and copious practice, practice, practice.....

 

[sm]

I am not as smart, as some of you folks. I have not put enough rds downrange - yet - IMO. I have not attended any known schools of instructions. If I ever attend a Awerbuck class, boy, he is ever gonna have fun with me.

I am into reliable, BIG time. I shoot stock shotguns, no extensions, no side saddles, that fit me.

I have used extensions, I have used sidesaddles and butt cuffs, I prefer the leather butt cuff for some hunting applications. Repeat hunting applications.

I can shoot weak handed , using the angled method with a leather butt cuff, I figure the jaw getting whacked is the least of my problems if I am in that type of situation.

The best thing I had for serious situations, that allowed me shoot either handed, did not mess up the handling of the shotgun, was a leather "cuff" that held 3 shells UNDER the stock. Something I came up with on my own.

Granted not as "slick" or "tactical" , still I had an additional 3 rds to the stock 5.

I also like the 5 shell holder that "pancakes" onto a waistband, there might be a situation I had to grab and go and the pants didn't have a belt. Sure didn't want to take the time to thread this onto a belt...though it had slits if I wanted to...like hunting.

I am just too much into reliable. I don't like Murphy, and I think the simpler I keep it for ME, maybe, just maybe the less Murphy can screw with.

Shotguns have a handiness and feel I like, so I give up rd count to be as Gen. Bedford Forrest put it - The firstest with the mostest.

First one with accurate shot placement - survives.

I'm probably wrong tho'.

 

[walking arsenal]

"One question regarding the butt cuff: What are you going to do if you ever need to use that shotgun and the situation/cover demands that you shoot it from your weak side?



I got asked this question once too.

But the rear sidesaddle (i have one in front also) doesnt seem to sit high enough to bother me if i shoot weekside. the side saddle is one of those el'cheepo nylon ones, maybe give that a go?

BTW, although my mossberg weighs a lot for a shotgun, it carries 18 rounds on the gun alone with the tube full, it balances nicely for me.

 

[Kingcreek]

I have never understood the popularity of clumsy add-on doohickies.
My rightside pants pocket is adequate for a few extra shells and I have a belt pouch if I need more than 6 or 8. Even back when I started hunting upland game (~35 years ago) I never carried more than 2 or 3 in addition to the 3 in the gun.

 

[Chris Rhines]

My rightside pants pocket is adequate for a few extra shells and I have a belt pouch if I need more than 6 or 8. Even back when I started hunting upland game (~35 years ago) I never carried more than 2 or 3 in addition to the 3 in the gun.

Very handy if you happen to be wearing pants at the time. If I have to use my shotgun in a hurry, I like having some spare ammo attached to the weapon. I don't intend to take Silver in the Bullet-Swapping Olympics for lack of ammo.

- Chris

 

[El Tejon]

King, because when things go bump in the night, I will have on my black, but untactical, boxer shorts and a smile.

Silver? Darn that Russian judge!

 

[BusMaster007]

One thing I did WRONG regarding the SideSaddle on my 870 was OVERtightening it.
I couldn't figure out why the sterling reputation of reliability was lacking...until I loosened up the part.
Now it goes BANG! ( or BOOM! ) everytime.
A good case of 'shoot the gun BEFORE you add the doohickies'.

 

[sm]

...because when things go bump in the night, I will have on my black, but untactical, boxer shorts and a smile.

I am so tempted, oh so tempted to type some of the lines I came up with a "set- up". that like.

I see Art's Grammaw with a wash rag and bar of soap standing in the shadows...she is trying to hide a snicker...she knows what I'm thinking...

Just checking on you boys with your talk of sidesaddles, black boxers and butt cuffs... -Grammaw

 

[walking arsenal]

Oh yeah.

In addition to the 18 rounds on the gun i've got a 50 round belt that goes around me. Too bad it doesnt feed through the gun. Thats heavy too.

 

[yorec]

I remember during a qualification course spotting something on one of the officer's shottys down the line that looked out of place. Everyone was midway through a four shot string and the thing was swinging like a pendelum down below his action - I moved to stop the firing just as I realized that it was his sidesaddle, having broken one of it's attachment pins, and just as he fired his last shot of the string...

The thing, being old and worn, with nothing left attaching it but the two posts, swung up on it's last remainning peg over the top and struck him smartly in the tip of his nose. It held a few remainning shells and was driven by recoil force. Lots of blood. But little pain.

I use a butt cuff exclusively because of that experience. A SS may one day be in the future because I know this happened due to an improper or worn out peice of equipment and I'm confident I'll have better luck, but my cuffs have never even had the possibility of doing such and work just fine for me so far...

 

[Kingcreek]

I have a little different attitude about "things that go bump in the night". Maybe it comes from living in a rural, somewhat secluded house with only one approach, motion lights, 2 good dogs, and a high quality security system. When something goes bump in the night I've got time to don the pants with pockets, lace my shoes, and probably even make some coffee.
I'll leave the rapid response scenario to you guys in the boxers with the sidesaddles.

 

[meh92]

This reply is from a purely "social-work" side of the argument. I don't hunt or shoot clay pigeons with a SG. However, I carry an 870 police magnum at work every day, I'm the department's Remington armorer responsible for about 40 SG's, and have a pretty good idea what is useful. I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination though, just someone with some information to share.

Side-saddles are just about the most useful place to keep extra/alternative ammunition immediately available. It is easy to reach, can be loaded while holding the gun on target (which can be necessary in certain circumstances), and are not an obsruction to off-handed shooting. Try shooting lefty with a butt-cuff full of shells set up for a righty. OUCH! Try loading from a shell-loop sling... just give it a try under any kind of real stress. Side saddles can be very useful indeed.

The 6-shot side saddle is a little too large for my taste. The smaller 4-shot version still allows the shooter to grip the receiver easily with one hand and not be obstructed by the side saddle. Gripping the receiver in this manner is useful in loading and clearing certian malfunctins. Try the 4-shot version... you may like the balance better.

As far as "unnecessary" extra shells used only for ninja human-wave attacks... well... I guess if you're set upon by a whorde of rabid ninjas you're probably not going to be saved by a few extras rounds. If that's your day to go then so be it ans save me a seat inside the pearly gates. However, if you're set upon by just one home intruder, at night, in the dark (certinly not an outrageous tactical scenario) you might find those extra few shells comforting. How? Well, I've seen the magazine cap come off the tubular magazine of Remington 870. It was another studet's gun at a 1-day Rob Haught tactical SG class in Marietta, OH. When this happened, all the remaining shells in the tube (along withe the spring and follower) dumped/shot right out of the magazine onto the ground. Was that gun completely out of action? No. By chamber-loading one round at a time, the gun could theoretically run indefinitely, or at least until the shells on the side-saddle were depeleted. I'd rather have those shells on the receiver immediately at my fingertips than crawling around on the floor, in the dark, under attack by an intruder.

Don't let me try to talk you into something you find uncomfortable or akward. Just give it an honest try with the proper understanding of it's abilities, advantages, and limitations and then make your final decision. Again, I recommend the 4 round version. And by all means, don't over-tighten it.

Stay safe.

 

[rugerfreak]

Just wondering where I'm gonna keep those extra shells in my tighty-whities---LOLOLOLOLOL

This is my rifle----this is my gun....................

 

[Dave McCracken]

Let me say it again. There's few hardnfast rules in shotgunning. What works for one of us may not for others.

One hard rule is, expertise only comes with use. So does muscle tone.

Even in decay mode as a Geezer In Training, I'm stronger than many adults. A 9 lb shotgun is no major problem for me if I do not have to run far with it. Much use is the reason.

My HD 870 weighs 9 lbs. As it is set up now, the TB I use for much of my clay fun is about 4 oz lighter, and weighs about what the second "serious" 870 does.

Practice with one means practice with all. And practice makes expertise.

If you use a box stock shotgun for defending your life, shoot the heck out of it.

If you use any mods or alterations, shoot the heck out of it.

Whether you're using an old IJ Champion or the new Dave McC Signature Model Loudenboomer SP Maggie Numb, Shoot the heck out of it.

Descending from pulpit....

 

[CRridermike]

i agree with 357. i dont like the side saddle. i got one because i wanted to have as many shells on my gun as i could but i had it on for about 5 min. and took it off.

 

[TEXASTACTICAL]

Kingcreek wrote:

I have a little different attitude about "things that go bump in the night". Maybe it comes from living in a rural, somewhat secluded house with only one approach, motion lights, 2 good dogs, and a high quality security system. When something goes bump in the night I've got time to don the pants with pockets, lace my shoes, and probably even make some coffee.

Never underestimate your enemies!

 

[Bwannabe]

I think you can slap too many aftermarket parts on a gun. I tricked out a 20" 870 Police a couple of years ago. I used the factory mag ext, a Surefire 9v, side saddle, Giles sling, MMC sights and a speedfeed stock. Recoil was mild, but it handled like a railroad tie - "ponderous" most aptly describes it. Such a shotgun approaches the size and weight of a battle rifle.

After lots of experimenting, I decided an HD shotgun should be light, compact and responsive. I use an 870 Police with an 18" bbl, XS front bead, 4 round side saddle, 13" LOP stock, carry strap and Surefire 6v. I also have a 20" rifle sighted barrel with XS small dot sights for my Wingmaster, which is set up in similar fashion, though with a longer LOP and sans the Surefire.

I like the Speedfeed stock, and it could be the answer for those of you who hate the side saddle but wisely opt to keep shells on the gun. My gun doesn't have one because it beats up the shells stored inside pretty bad, and has a longer LOP than I like for a pure HD shotgun.

As far a butt-cuffs are concerned, they're ok. I like the nicer leather units, but feel that loading from the side-saddle is quicker and more positive.

 

[Mesa Tactical]

Just a reminder...

"Side Saddle" is a registered trademak of Tacstar for their on-gun shotshell holder. This is important to keep in mind as other vendors begin to release their own solutions (hint hint).

I moved to stop the firing just as I realized that it was his sidesaddle, having broken one of it's attachment pins, and just as he fired his last shot of the string...

This was probably due to the inadequate design of the system securing the shell holder to the gun. There are much better ways than screwing steel bolts into holes tapped into 1/8" aluminum plate.