I have a (perhaps stupid) question about NFA engraving requirements

[MasterSergeantA]

I do not remember whether I had seen it here or on another forum, but I remember a discussion about the requirement to engrave personal/trust information on the item when the Form 1 was approved. Some folks recommended doing the engraving FIRST in case the engraver got it wrong. Then 'someone' chimed in that the engraving is not required until/unless you are transferring the NFA item at some point.

Does anyone remember that discussion? It was news to me and I have yet to send a letter to ATF, but since most things don't get a new serial number, it almost makes sense.

Help?

 

[Sam1911]

The engraving is absolutely required if you're making an NFA Firearm, period.



The only thing I can think of where that "if you're transferring..." bit comes up is in the case of NON-NFA weapons that you make yourself. In that case there is actually no requirement that they be serialized. However some people do say "If you sell it it should/must be serialized." The ATF says it "should" be, but then the law they quote in support of that advice is actually the law regarding NFA weapons! So it's very confusing.

Sort of like passing a law that says all pickup trucks have to have DOT numbers on them, and then when someone asks you about what if you build your own car you point to the law on trucks and say "Yes! See, right here it says so..."

 

[dogtown tom]

......Then 'someone' chimed in that the engraving is not required until/unless you are transferring the NFA item at some point.....

That "someone" doesn't know jack squat.
ATF regulations are very clear on the engraving requirement for the maker of an NFA firearm.

 

[Theohazard]

It doesn't matter when you engrave it, so long as it's properly engraved before it's assembled (or before the parts are arranged in such a way that you're legally considered to have the intent to assemble it). As for the engraving requirements, they're described here in Chapter 6 of the ATF's National Firearms Act Handbook entitled, "Making NFA Firearms by Nonlicensee":

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/a...gglMAA&usg=AFQjCNHKLOV2ALJzGyKE2kJC3t0GGdCmEQ

It looks like that handbook hasn't been updated since 41F, but 41F didn't change the engraving requirements so they're still applicable.

 

[vtsteve]

One thing I’ve always wondered about, the law says the “additional markings” are required at the time of making or manufacturing said firearm. There’s nothing that says the markings need to remain, other than the serial number which must be on the receiver.

If one were to engrave the maker’s name and city/state, caliber on a barrel for example(which is compliant), and later swap out said barrel, does the new one also need to be engraved?

 

[Theohazard]

One thing I’ve always wondered about, the law says the “additional markings” are required at the time of making or manufacturing said firearm. There’s nothing that says the markings need to remain, other than the serial number which must be on the receiver.

If one were to engrave the maker’s name and city/state, caliber on a barrel for example(which is compliant), and later swap out said barrel, does the new one also need to be engraved?

Yes, it needs to be engraved on the new barrel.

Here's what the ATF says:

"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon."

When they use the term "must be engraved", that seems to me that it means the engraving must be on the firearm and remain on the firearm.

Also, I read the actual regulations at 27 CFR 479.102 and I didn't see anything that said or implied that the engraving only had to be on the firearm during assembly.

However, if there's something I'm missing here I'd appreciate someone pointing it out.

 

[MachIVshooter]

That "someone" doesn't know jack squat.
ATF regulations are very clear on the engraving requirement for the maker of an NFA firearm.

This.

Where NFA engravings on a form 1 build differ from manufacturer marking requirements is that they don't necessarily have to be on the serialized part. You can do it just about anywhere, as long as it meets the size & depth requirements (in metal) . Of course, if doing something like an AR SBR, you either engrave one lower, or you have to engrave somewhere on every short upper you ever attach to it, so most of us just do the lower receiver.

Yes, it needs to be engraved on the new barrel.

Here's what the ATF says:

"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon."

When they use the term "must be engraved", that seems to me that it means the engraving must be on the firearm and remain on the firearm.

Also, I read the actual regulations at 27 CFR 479.102 and I didn't see anything that said or implied that the engraving only had to be on the firearm during assembly.

However, if there's something I'm missing here I'd appreciate someone pointing it out.

Those are manufacturer requirements. Unless your building on an 80% or doing a scratch build, the firearm already has make, model & S/N.

NFA engravings for a form 1 build are your name/trust name, city & state, caliber, and they don't have to be on the serialized receiver. They do have to be somewhere on the firearm whenever it's in NFA configuration.

 

[Theohazard]

MachIVshooter:

The specific part of the CFR I cited was the same one that the ATF cited specifically in the handbook chapter I linked to that dealt with Form 1 engraving requirements.

So it seems like they're getting their Form 1 engraving requirements from the same place as the manufacturer requirements if I read it correctly.

 

[vtsteve]

What’s in the NFA handbook, and what the actual statutes say are two different things. One is law, the other is merely “guidance”. The law is very clear regarding marking requirements at time of manufacture, import, etc, of firearms but I don’t recall much in the statutes relating specifically to Title II markings.

As an example, Savage puts the serial number on the receiver of their bolt action rifles, and the rest of the info on the barrel. Ruger does the same thing as well, and I’m sure many other manufacturers. Does that mean that everyone that’s done a barrel swap on these (keeping it over 16”) and not engraved has violated the law? I would argue that it’s only required to mark when creating a “new” firearm, such as when you “make” an SBR. If you swap out the barrel later you haven’t “made” anything new.

 

[MachIVshooter]

MachIVshooter:

The specific part of the CFR I cited was the same one that the ATF cited specifically in the handbook chapter I linked to that dealt with Form 1 engraving requirements.

So it seems like they're getting their Form 1 engraving requirements from the same place as the manufacturer requirements if I read it correctly.

If you read it carefully, and part 7.4, you'll see where the requirements for manufacturing a firearm and making a title II firearm from an existing firearm differ.

Licensed manufacturers must put the serial number on the receiver/frame, and the weapon must also be conspicuously marked on receiver or barrel with manufacturer location and caliber.

Unlicensed builders making personal weapons needn't mark them at all.

Unlicensed builders making title II weapons from scratch must mark them the same as a licensed manufacturer.

Unlicensed builders making title II weapons from existing serialized firearms must mark them with their name, trust name, or recognized abbreviation thereof, caliber, and city/state of the unlicensed builder as it is listed on the form 1. You DO NOT have to assign a new serial number (and aren't supposed to), and you DO NOT have to engrave your information on the serialized part of the frame or receiver. You DO have to make sure that the relevant NFA engravings are present and easily visible on the weapon. Where something like an AR is concerned, your serialized lower is registered, but you can put the NFA markings on the upper or barrel if you like. But you will have to engrave any short upper or barrel you install on the registered lower when it becomes an SBR in doing to.

 

[Theohazard]

I definitely don't disagree with any of that. And I don't think I ever said anything that contradicts what you posted.

When I posted the CFR I was just using the same reference that the ATF used in their Form 1 handbook I linked to.

 

[Theohazard]

Vtsteve, you make a good point. I suppose that -- absent any case law on the subject that I'm unaware of -- it's just one of those things that people don't want to take chances with.