I just got reminded

[preachnhunt]

I just got reminded why we should always stay aware. I am a pastor and was sitting in my office about an hour ago when I heard the door chime sound from the outside door to the church. I usually lock it ,but had not this time and when I went out to the entrance a young guy had already let himself in. He was dressed like a pimp in a suit and a white hat. He also had a cane with an 8 ball on the top. He said his name was Orlando Jett.

After he sat down he started his hard luck tale. I kept my eye on that cane.
In about two minutes the chime rang again and a LEO came into my office and asked the guy to step outside. They questioned him and frisked him. No ID. They ran the SSN he gave them and then one of the officers took the cane from him. He unscrewed the top and pulled out about a 20 inch sword! I had suspected that. After the finished talking to him they GAVE HIM BACK THE CANE and said he could come back in and talk to me.

I eventually got rid of the guy, but I kept my hand on my 642 in my pocket the whole time. Believe me that was a comfort. It all turned out ok but I wanted to share the experience as a reminder that you never know what can happen. Jim

 

[critter]

Never had to use my carry piece, but I, like you, have been in some instances where the feel of cold steel was mightily comforting.

 

[highorder]

How is that not illegally carrying a concealed weapon?

He unscrewed the top and pulled out about a 20 inch sword! I had suspected that. After the finished talking to him they GAVE HIM BACK THE CANE

 

[HKUSP45C]

How is that not illegally carrying a concealed weapon?

Many states don't regulate the carrying of a whole slew of "weapons" for the general public, thankfully.

Sadly, Texas is not one of those nifty states.

 

[9mmepiphany]

How is that not illegally carrying a concealed weapon?

depending on where you live, the law might read "concealable weapon"...a 20" sword isn't concealable, disguised perhaps but not concealed...like you can't conceal a full sized rifle

out here we have a separate law which regulates cane swords. but that's the same law which covers dirk, daggers and switchblades...which many states don't have a problem with.

 

[HKUSP45C]

I just looked it up. As long as the "weapon" wasn't concealed, and I think we can all agree that carrying a cane isn't concealing it (even if the blade of the sword were concealed as all sheathed swords would be), it's legal in Ohio.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

He says he noticed the cane right away and kept an eye on it all along.

He says he had his hand on the 642 in his pocket and the story does not mention the guy or LEO noticing it.

So the cane's obviously not a "concealable" weapon. And the handgun certainly is.

Also this man did not commit any act of theft or violence towards the pastor or the church, and the LEOs did not detain him or anything. So he couldn't have been too bad of a guy. It's a shame that the pastor was ready to draw and shoot him because he was wearing a funky suit. I figured everyone was welcome in the house of god, but I guess not.

 

[waldonbuddy]

Kinda what I was thinking as well..........

 

[Mags]

I thought the same at first but this ain't the 50s we have to be more vigilant with the times.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

The church has been intended to welcome anyone for thousands of years now. It has been the moral and social pillar of communities all over the world. If our times have made even the church unsafe, then there's probably nothing left to fight for.

 

[preachnhunt]

I didn't say he wasn't welcome. As a matter of fact I talked to him for quite a while,gave him a drink of water when he requested it, let him use the church phone, and did my best to answer his questions about turning his life around. I am not ,however,going to wait for him to commit an act of violence before preparing myself to defend against such an act.
I was prepared not because he had on a "funky suit" but because he had a sword and because the story he was telling law enforcement was directly contradictory to the one he had told me. It is a fine line to walk but my boss has instructed us to be "...sheep in the midst of wolves....and therefore to be " wise as serpents and innocent as doves"

 

[ny32182]

It has been my belief for quite a while now that today is probably statistically safer than the "good old days" (50's or whenever), and that the much greater communications abilities of today make the world *seem* artificially more dangerous, since we now hear about practically everything that goes on in the entire world.

Regarding the story here, it is simply bizarre... a pimp suit guy comes into a church? (huh?) Cops follow him in and check him out with no explaination?

If your religion has to "change with the times" since this isn't the 50's anymore, well, there might be some issues there. (not directed at the OP)

 

[9mmepiphany]

I didn't say he wasn't welcome

I heard the door chime sound from the outside door to the church. I usually lock it

somehow i don't perceive a locked door as sending a message of "welcome"

maybe were "different" out here in CA, but i know of at least a couple of local churches where i can walk in...just because.

has religion on the East Coast gotten more selective? or are there just limited hours when folks are allowed "in"

 

[HKUSP45C]

I thought the same at first but this ain't the 50s we have to be more vigilant with the times.

Actually, most of the research I've done says people who aren't involved in criminal enterprise are about as likely today to be a victim of crime as they were in the mid-fifties to the early sixties. Viloent crime rates per capita are slightly higher now than they were then but the US population has doubled since then too. More people living in close proximity usually leads to higher crime rates, in general.

It's not really that the US is drastically more dangerous today than it was then. At least that's what I've been able to extrapolate. 1950 wasn't exactly the utopian paradise many people would like to believe it was.

Further, when you look at rates of crimes like rape it's important to remember that women today have a tremendous amount of support for that kind of thing than they did in the fifties making them MUCH more likely to report the crime in the first place.

So, yeah, it's important to be vigilant but it was important in 1950 too, for the same reasons.

I still don't think we've devolved as a society to the point where it's necessary to have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

[Mags]

Very good point HK, and so everyone knows my dad wasn't even born in the 50s so I have not experienced the "good ol days" myself.

 

[iyaoyas98]

 

[noskilz]

The Dark Knight says:

I figured everyone was welcome in the house of god, but I guess not.

waldonbuddy says:

Kinda what I was thinking as well..........

9mmepiphany says:

somehow i don't perceive a locked door as sending a message of "welcome" . . . maybe were "different" out here in CA, but i know of at least a couple of local churches where i can walk in...just because.

Must be nice to so righteous and smug. I guess you guys will happily sit down with a person who admits he's in need of emotional guidance at that time and is carrying a sword. Meanwhile, a couple of days ago a Catholic priest was murdered in his parish rectory. Sheesh, get a grip.

 

[Cosmoline]

True, we need to be on our guard. But we also need to remember not to be beguiled by appearances--either way. It's not the outrageous "Orlando Jetts" of the world you need to be worried about. It's the friendly, ordinary-looking fellas who cozy up to you and ask to hold your gun for a second. That's what took the life of a former pastor who used to frequent THR. The devil doesn't wear a name tag. He wants to put you off your guard.

An obvious pimp looking for grace? Going in to a white church he's liable to be more scared than you are.

 

[Sam1911]

Strange: A poster explains a situation in which he was situationally aware enough to identify a potential weapon carried by an individual who has entered a semi-private space unannounced (except by the door chime) and has the foresight to be prepared with a discreetly ready weapon of his own in the event that he needs it.

This individual who raised the poster's situational awareness level by his presence, appearance, and accouterments, ALSO attracted the attention of local law enforcement who felt that there was reasonable suspicion (of what we don't know) to frisk the man and run his ID. In the event of the frisk, they determine that one of the individual's hand-carried belongings was an even more formidable weapon than the poster had first thought.

And the result of the entire exchange is that they all conducted themselves as gentlemen and everyone got to go home that night.

And here, in the hallowed halls of "Situational Awareness University" -- the very bastion of the armed citizen -- we deride the man because he identified a potentially dangerous situation and prepared himself, quite reasonably, to handle it.

And we have these poor excuses for reasoning:

So he couldn't have been too bad of a guy.

Really? No warrants outstanding. That's about all you can say. Was he good? Was he bad? Who knows? Why does it matter? Situational awareness isn't about only identifying convicted felons in the moment before they strike again. It's about thinking strategically about your options and the possibilities of the actions others might take. If he'd whacked the good pastor with the 8-ball sword cane and looted the alms box I suppose we could then deride the pastor for NOT thinking so clearly. Better luck next time?

It's a shame that the pastor was ready to draw and shoot him because he was wearing a funky suit.

Really? That's how you feel? That's the message you took from this exchange? How about, "It's great that a pastor would be ready to do what he had to to live to serve his congregation and family. And it's great that the pastor had the reason and restraint not to act rashly in a disquieting situation."

I figured everyone was welcome in the house of god, but I guess not.

I forgot about our rule that pastors are supposed to be innocent lambs who accept death rather than think ill of any man. The analogy of "turning the other cheek" was NOT about suffering abuse and death at the hands of a criminal.

Do a little research (even just here on THR) about church shootings and murders in the last few years. Then tell me how sound self-defensive principles are good enough for "us" but somehow reflect badly on a minster.

-Sam

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Must be nice to so righteous and smug. I guess you guys will happily sit down with a person who admits he's in need of emotional guidance at that time and is carrying a sword. Meanwhile, a couple of days ago a Catholic priest was murdered in his parish rectory. Sheesh, get a grip.

And how would YOU feel? Should we be afraid of you cause you carry a GUN? The guy carries a weapon for self defense, just like many of you do. People on here get riled up when they can't bring their gun to Applebee's, wonder how they'd feel getting dirty looks in a church. You have a gun in your pocket, are you some kind of scary person we should all outcast? Sounds like a very anti view to me!

 

[kd7nqb]

Let me share my thoughts without drifting this thread any farther.

1. The OP did the right thing in being aware and being armed.
2. Locking the door does not mean your unwelcome, my assumption is the the OP had every intention of opening the door for the man and greeting him.
3. While the LORD is open to hear your issues 24x7 I don't feel that any man should be required to open a door to a nefarious looking charecter at 2am if he fears for his life. (I know thats not what happened here)
4. The OP still sat down with the man, had a conversation and did not shove the man out the door. I ask how many of you would leave your door unlocked and when a man described here above sit down and talk with him. I know there are quite a few on this board who's only words would be GET OUT followed by gunshots.
5. As to having your hand on the gun, smart move

To the OP may GOD bless you and your church.

 

[Sam1911]

And how would YOU feel? Should we be afraid of you cause you carry a GUN?

Nope. But I'd expect you to be aware of me and my actions and to have some at least half-formed notions of how you might react if I start to set off your warning buzzers. Same as I'd try to do for you.

The guy carries a weapon for self defense, just like many of you do.

Yup. Always assume EVERYONE is armed. Then you'll be right at least half the time. If someone appears unexpectedly, seems out of place or on edge, and/or acts in some manner that sets off the tiniest alert signal, I'm going to discretely ratchet up my readiness to respond. That's just human nature (if you're paying attention at all) and common sense.

Notice how the pastor DIDN'T shoot the guy? Didn't THREATEN the guy? In fact, didn't even show a sign that he wasn't cool as a cucumber on the inside? That's why his reactions were completely appropriate.

People on here get riled up when they can't bring their gun to Applebee's, wonder how they'd feel getting dirty looks in a church. You have a gun in your pocket, are you some kind of scary person we should all outcast? Sounds like a very anti view to me!

Once more, it wasn't simply a matter of the guy being armed. I'd have assumed he had a LOT more than a sword-cane on him. And that would have been fine with me -- he should be assuming the same about me.

I think the oddest thing about this story is that the OP felt it was noteworthy enough to share here. Maybe it was the police intervention and frisking that put it over the top. Otherwise, I don't see one thing that's not business as usual.

-Sam

 

[9mmepiphany]

noskilz posted

Must be nice to so righteous and smug. I guess you guys will happily sit down with a person who admits he's in need of emotional guidance at that time and is carrying a sword. Meanwhile, a couple of days ago a Catholic priest was murdered in his parish rectory. Sheesh, get a grip.

it is neither righteous nor smug...isn't that the role that the clergy plays?

i'm not saying he shouldn't be aware of his surroundings, but it was "his" choice to follow this path in life...it isn't just a job, it's a calling

it least that is how it was explained to me

i have sat down with people who admit they were under emotional distress. some have been armed with knives on their belts, some with a baseball bat. i was armed, but i didn't draw my pistol either...i just asked them to put their weapon aside.

i don't know if happily would be the first word to come to mind, but it was part of the job when i followed that career path...and it was what i was good at.

i have a grip...it isn't about a lack of fear...that's just stupid...it's about not letting it affect what needs to be done

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Exactly, there's a lot more to improving our society than just figuring out what makes the biggest hole in someone.

 

[Sam1911]

i have a grip...it isn't about a lack of fear...that's just stupid...it's about not letting it affect what needs to be done

So the good pastor did exactly what he should have, is what you're saying? He didn't let his apprehension about the situation get in his way. He spoke with the man, listened to his needs, and everyone went on their way.

Sounds right to me! In fact, sounds exactly like what you did in the same situation.

-Sam