I learned a lot about our Ruger LCR

[Fiv3r]

I never had a recoil issue with the LCR. My problem with it is that after hundreds and hundreds of rounds...I can't hit beans with it I don't know what my issue is with it.

I switched to a much heavier SP101 and have had much better luck. Don't get me wrong, the lcr is very soft shooting for me. Very comfortable. As a matter of fact, I might give the lcr to my wife to see if she likes it.

 

[BSA1]

“Comparing these steel alternatives side by side shows that they are bigger and heavier but not so much that hiding them will be impossible. She shoots well and confidently with our M19 and the Dan Wesson 15-2VH and the Colt DS and Ruger SP101 and well as a borrowed S&W M60LS appeal to her very much and she is comfortable handling and dry firing them.”

You have two different issues going on ;

The first is you and your wife have not mastered the fundamentals; trigger pull, sight picture, proper grip, breathing and stance. The short sight radius and small, narrow size of the front and rear sights are much more unforgiving to imperfect alignment. You admit this when you said “We learned to shoot the LCR (both of us) today by ignoring the sights…”

The other four fundamentals are at play here also such as difficulty with proper grip due to small grips which in turn causes problems with trigger pull.

While the fundaments remain the same a larger gun a larger gun that fits your hands better and larger, easier to sights will help you and you wife.

The second issue is the trigger pull on small frame guns are more difficult to master. My wife has difficulty shooting a handgun double action due to medical issues and general physical build. (Which for some reason some members can not understand why. Must be a macho guy thing). We discovered earlier this month that the Colt Police Positive Special is the perfect match for her. The V-spring action, slightly larger grip, slightly smaller frame than the S&W K-frame and 4” barrel makes shooting double action a snap for her.

Since you state your wife has no problems with shooting other revolvers try the Colt Detective Special. It’s slightly larger size than the Ruger along with larger grips and smoother trigger pull just might be the ticket.

p.s. Quit shooting so many rounds in a session. Learning to shoot 50 rounds in the 10 ring will teach you more than 150 round scattered somewhere on the target.

 

[Trailduster79]

Have you considered non +P or cowboy loads for range use (with the last cylinder your carry ammo) to get comfortable with the gun? Why punish yourself with +P practice ammo if you shoot more than a handful of rounds? Just a thought to make the range trip more enjoyable while still getting the benefit of the lighter gun.

This would be my suggestion as well.

I found that I was having the same issue with my LCP, it was uncomfortable to shoot enough rounds through it to become confident with it.

I have since developed a load for it that allows me to shoot a significant number of round through it before my hand gets tired of it.

 

[DPris]

I put 5300+ rounds through an early LCR, most of which was +P. With factory grips the gun tore skin in my hand.
When I switched to a glove, working up from 150-round sessions to 500-round sessions of +P, it tore the glove.

This was not shooter error or lack of "technique".

I did not find anything remotely fun about the model, it is not a range toy.
It's a lightweight pocket gun with reasonable power levels, if you carry reasonably powerful .38 Special ammunition in it.

It was decently accurate (if slightly off from POA) at 15 yards.
Closer in, using the old FBI one-handed un-aimed single-hand crouch, it was completely viable for defensive uses with that +P.
Controllable, but not enjoyable.

It isn't for everybody, and if you have to load it down to .380 ACP power levels you're not getting the most out of it.

I'd consider a steel-framed snub, if a .38 SP snub is required.
Denis

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Thank you DPris. I don't feel like I'm the only one anymore now.

I really should post up a target I shot last weekend.....I may not have mastered my basics but I managed to eat the very middle of a 6" X 10" target card at 21' in rapid fire. I can shoot it - it just pounds the snot out of me with factory loads and even light reloads. My Wife is a relative newbie and still shoots it pretty well when she's not flinching...which is a habit I cannot let her form.

It's a 13.5 ounce gun. I'm betting that a 21 ounce Colt DS or a 26 ounce Ruger SP101 will work out fine for her as she shoots our full size revolvers just fine and accurately. Not necessarily disagreeing with the "not doing well on our basics" comment just reiterating that we both shoot other things just fine.

We just aren't enjoying the 13.6 ounce 2" fire breather no matter how many folks find the LCR recoil "mild" and "no big deal". Probably we are just wimps. I suspect there's gonna be a lightly used LCR for sale for a great price as soon as Mama shoots a steel revolver that weighs a bit more.

This one was a trade in after 50 rounds...I met the guy at the range who traded it and asked him what he didn't like about it. He, like we, loved the gun...the trigger, the size, the finish, the ergonomics. Fits in a pocket and feels like a million dollars. Then it punches you in the hand like a Nun that caught you cheating on a math test. He was a man of smaller stature. I should have suspected it might be a little snappy for my Wife.

We'll see how it goes and let Kelly make her choice but I know her well enough to know what she's gonna prefer in a side by side comparison of .38 Sp. Revolvers.

VooDoo

 

[dawei]

Two better options for your wife would be an Ruger® SP101 or a Taurus® Mdl 605; both in 357 Magnum. Load either w/38 Special ammunition and she will find them to be highly accurate & low recoil. My wife (65) carries a Taurus® Mdl 605SS2 daily and routinely puts 100 rounds through it on every range trip.

 

[DPris]

No, you're not the only one.

The LCR has a place, but doesn't fit everybody, and I have zero embarrassment in saying that it was quite uncomfortable to shoot for me.

I am not overly sensitive to recoil & have a video somewhere here of me shooting a Smith .460 Mag snub with a full-bore load, one-handed.

The LCR is just not something that fit my hand well.

The Colt DS, and two steel-framed Smith J-Frames all shoot +P more comfortably & more easily in terms of accuracy for me.

If you can live with the extra weight, go with a steel-framed snub.
There are several grip options that can be used with the little Smiths to mate them with different hand sizes.
Handloading down to reduced-power loads just to make the gun tolerable doesn't make much sense to me. Finding a gun that's more shootable for you with effective ammunition does.

I've never been so wedded to any single gun that I had to constrict its effectiveness just to be able to shoot it.

I'd not necessarily recommend the Ruger SP, trigger may be too much for someone with reduced hand strength.
At least have her try one before buying it.
Denis

 

[larryh1108]

Denis,
Loading down for any gun for range use is common. It's not watering down your carry ammo. If you end your range session with a cylinder full of your carry ammo you can shoot a lot more, get comfortable with the gun itself and still have the right carry ammo.

 

[DPris]

If you do all your range practice with half-power loads, how well do you think you'll actually do under stress with full-power stuff?

I "grew up" in revolver shooting with military & police training. In the military, we trained with the same load we carried (AF, .38 Special Smith Model 15, relatively lightweight full metal jacket load).
Back then, in law enforcement after I got out, we used .38 wadcutters for all practice & qualification. Cheaper, easier for most to manage to qualify with.

Analysis across the country of performance in actual LE shootings with full-powered duty loads vs half-powered practice stuff in the 1970s finally led to police training & qualifying with power loads that equaled duty power levels, and that is the accepted standard today.

In my younger & less-informed days, under the old wadcutter system, I was quite disconcerted to discover the difference in point of impact between those piddly wadcutters and full-bore .357 Mag loads (as an example that's not really all that far off here) when I went to sight my .357 in for .357 loads one day. I'd been carrying it perfectly zeroed for .38 wads & the POI was quite different with the magnums. Like I said- less-informed times.

I also found that (not surprisingly) what I could pull off on the range with wads was quite different in recoil control, speed, and DA accuracy with what I actually carried.

One of the greatest stories to illustrate the fallacy of the old way we used to do it was the relatively new deputy who was quite a speedball on the range with wadcutters, but when it came time to fire a magnum load on the street he got one shot off & was so startled by the .357 recoil that he dropped his gun, thinking it had blown up in his hand.

If you get yourself so accustomed to practice with low-powered stuff in that LCR, you will not perform to the same levels with the "real" ammo if & when you actually need it.

That's the entire idea behind LE now training with loads that provide the same blast & recoil levels as the duty ammo.

The idea that "Shooting is shooting, and training is training, regardless of the relationship between what you do at the range & what you carry for actual use" is false & can be quite dangerous.

It instills a false level of confidence, and results in a lower degree of actual proficiency than if you practice with as close to the equivalent of what you carry as you can.


You'll be more proficient if you don't water your practice down, particularly with a +P load in a featherweight gun, which is pretty much the corollary of the difference between wads & mags in a bigger steel revolver.
One cylinder of the real deal at the end of a practice session isn't going to do you much good.
Denis

 

[larryh1108]

Denis,
I always admire your posts and knowlege. I enjoy your input in threads. However, I will disagree with you here.

Comparing LEO training with training for a CCW is night and day. Yes, what you said is 100% true but LEOs use their weapons a lot different than the average CCW. The OP already admitted he uses point and shoot for this particular gun. Most SD incidents are at close range, a lot closer than the typical LEO encounter. Also, the chances of a CCW needing their weapon is up near the chances of winning the lottery where an LEO faces danger every day.

So, my point is, if someone practices with lower powered ammo and practices a lot and becomes one with his/her gun and gains confidence in it, it is a lot better than using punishing ammo for practice to a point that you don't practice at all. A trained LEO needs to use his street ammo to be proficient with his weapon but someone who is more than likely going to need it at very close distances needs different training. Ideally, you are right but in the real world your advise is not what is needed to gain confidence in a particular gun.

If you end every range session with a cylinder of your carry ammo, you do get the difference each time you train. It won't be like you feel you blew your gun up. When I take my fiance to the range, I have her shoot the last cylinder with the carry ammo as fast as she can to see how accurate she is. After 50 or so rounds of softer shooting ammo she is more than capable of handling the stouter ammo and can put 5 in the kill zone at 15' every time... in a few seconds. She gains confidence each time because she can shoot more than 5 or 10 rounds for practice. Yes the street ammo is hotter but she knows that up front and the increase from soft ammo to stout ammo allows her to get her confidence with the gun and the street ammo.

In a real SD scenario, the confidence goes a long way in actually shooting the gun and the street ammo will be lost in the adrenaline rush. If you practice right you will shoot right when all you have is your training. Point and shoot as fast as you can but you have to hit what you shoot at. Shooting more rounds achieves this more than shooting stouter rounds less often. It's human nature.

 

[DPris]

Larry,
You're entirely welcome to disagree, but my statement above remains.

There are obviously differences in "training" or practice between LE & regular concealed carriers, but I'd dispute your assertion that CCWer's encounters are "a lot closer" than typical LE encounters.

And regardless of the specific type of training involved, if you do 99% of your practicing of any type with much lesser-powered ammunition than what you normally carry, you will accustom yourself to what & how you shoot the most, not all of which is directly transferable to handling the same gun effectively under stress with greater blast & recoil levels.

I'm not saying you'll think you blew your gun up in shooting heavier loads, that was an extreme example to illustrate a point.

And, as I mentioned previously- it's the false sense of confidence gained in shooting a lower-powered load extensively at the range that may be self-defeating in a real shooting situation with real ammunition.

Make your own choices, my opinions stand, based on many years of shooting revolvers, being a part of the transition in LE full-power training philosophy, observing many other shooters, and more than a couple years training people with .38-caliber revolvers.
Denis

 

[SeanSw]

This is enlightening. A few weeks ago I let a friend shoot a box of mild factory 158gr jsp .357 loads through my 6" Ruger security Six. They felt about they same as .38 special +p through my Model 67. As I recall, more was expected from the famous .357 magnum and they walked away greatly unimpressed by the power and recoil of the gun as well as the accuracy.

They needed a great deal more practice shooting double action I think.

I only mention this because we both have our eyes on the Ruger LCR and we handled a variety of them together before giving each other our remarks. I said it was crazy to think that full house .357 from a gun that size would be "shootable" (your call on whatever that is) but my friend insists that guns like that aren't meant to be aimed, they're simply fired from the belly with a straight wrist to take the recoil. The sights never come into play. They still insist that it's no big deal to shoot .357 magnum loads on a 16 oz. gun. Big talk from someone who only fired some 1150fps 158gr ammo from a 2 1/2 Lbs. steel revolver with hogue grips

I wish someone near me had one to loan so I could be entertained at the range. As people have said before... it's an experts gun.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The concept of downloading the ammunition is to get her comfortable enough to shoot the gun and see if she will *ever* be able to tolerate it or if we need to abandon this possibility as a CCW piece. She has reiterated that she *will* practice and proficiency with rounds she intends to carry for SD and that downloading to make that happen is not a good idea or one that she supports.

We'll be shooting a Ruger SP101 this weekend and are not giving up on the .38 revolver as a CCW consideration for her..she shoots the full size 4" revolvers very, very well and confidently. The task is to see if she can transition this inherent skill and accuracy level to a smaller revolver that she can carry.

Having worked with her the last few days and with the local GS I am convinced the solution will be a heavier snub. Maybe not the SP101 (the trigger one of the things we do love about the LCR) but I'm betting a S&W 60 in 2" or a Colt DS is gonna be a winner. Another 6 - 10 ounces and I think she will feel much better. But the concept here is *not* to dumb the .38 Special down until it is useless just so she can carry it in a revolver....She'll practice with what she carries and proficiencies with in terms of ammunition.

VooDoo

 

[Old Fuff]

Is there some reason that downloaded (or so-called "standard loads) cannot be used for both practice and carry? Should she, or you, ever have to use the revolver in a serious confrontation it will likely be at point blank distance. Whoever is on the other end isn't going to inquire about what ammunition is being used. Bullet placement, rather then muzzle velocity, energy or temporary cavitation is what's important.

Concerning the D.A. trigger pull: Ruger copied Smith & Wesson's pre-war "long action." and put it in their downsized package. While you are looking around, see if you happen to find a pre-1946 K-frame, Military & Police .38 revolver and check out the trigger pull.

 

[John C]

Look at the standard pressure 125 grain defense ammo like the Nyclad. It will have 20% more recoil than a 148 gr wadcutter. It's excellent ammo. It will even work well from a heavier revolver.

-John

 

[DPris]

Fuff,
I base my ballistic opinions on a number of things, not the least of which is several years of experience with people who'd been shot with various calibers, in various places.
Some of whom survived, and some of whom did not.

Bullet type, bullet size, and projectile energy does make a difference, and don't bother to mention "Placement is EVERYTHING", because it isn't, and with a gun you can't aim or hit with consistently beyond 10 feet you're even more handicapped in that regard.

You can't count on even a heart shot to immediately stop the other guy with a .38, you can't count on one shot in general to shut down a threat instantly, it's highly recommended that you be able to reliably strike an aggressive assailant attempting bodily harm on you with more than one round fired (which is where controllability comes in), and I've never bought into the .38 Wadcutter as being "good enough" to consider a defensive round.

It does not have to be a +P load, but depending on something like 2 grains of Bullseye behind a wadcutter's foolish, in my opinion. (And I don't use that 2 grains literally, just as an example.)

When I said I'd found I was able to use the old FBI one-handed crouch with good results, that was close up, using one specific grip style that made it impossible to aim, and I would not consider that one-hand shooting style to be effective at more than a few feet's distance.

The LCR has two primary selling points: light trigger and light weight. Those come with a pricetag attached; the price you pay is increased recoil with effective ammunition and a reduction in longer practical engagement distances.
If you think you'll only need to defend yourself at five feet, you're betting on statistics that may or may not turn against you.
If you think you can pull off a head shot under stress on a moving target with a gun you can't aim & can't quickly fire followup shots through, you may not be viewing this realistically.

Vod,
The Colt will have the lightest DA trigger among the choices you're mentioning, along with the ability to cock it for greater accuracy at distance, but be aware that Colt is losing the ability to service those, so if you go that route, get one as close to "new" condition as you can find, and also that the gun was rated by Colt for about 3000 rounds of +P .38s before it was recommended it be sent back for a checkup.

Today, Colt can't replace the frame if it stretches, and they're running out of hands (the most commonly-replaced part in a high-mileage gun with that older action).
Don't count on a local gunsmith for DS work, very few places left that can competently work on that action.

The Ruger SP will probably have the heaviest DA trigger, the Smith J-Frame trigger will still be much heavier than the LCR's trigger, both are capable of firing much more +P than the Colt, both are obviously still well supported by their makers.
Denis

 

[MK11]

How about trading (or just buying your wife her own) LCR in .22lr or .22 magnum? Good way to get a lot of rounds downrange and while it's on the light side, a .22 that she will carry and be confident in is better than the .38 she hates.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Excellent information here, gentlemen. Especially Denis...yer helping me a lot with this.

The main attraction for Kelly with the Colt DS is that it's in the family and it simply is a goose bump gun to handle...for her and myself. It's been shot very little if at all and it belonged to her Dad along with the S&W M19 she started this whole thing with. It's available for a test run and I think we'll use it to test the theory that most of the bite in the .38 snub for her (in the LCR) is that it weighs 13.5 ounces. I believe the Colt DS is 21 oz. The Ruger SP101 is 26 ounces.

We are gonna shoot them all with the same ammunition side by side and see how it goes and what conclusions we can draw. We are still searching for the proper SD handgun platform for her and I think that's gonna be a revolver due to her basic accuracy and comfort level with them. But we never know. I'm trying to help her sort out her many, many possibilities and give her choices to let her choose her best fit without overwhelming her or judging/forcing or manipulating. Cost is no object (within reason) and she can have anything she chooses + anything additional to customize it for her....sights, trigger jobs, grips/stocks. It's hard to get her mind wrapped around the "take yer time and shoot 'em all until one rings the bell for you" but we are getting there.

Another possibility is a S&W M60 which is in the running as well but we do not have one to test without buying it. If the Colt/Ruger SP101 test solves the basic issue, I'm not opposed to buying her a new M60 and using the Ruger LCR on trade or selling it outright to contribute the funds. Either way, we won't lose enough of the LCR investment to be concerned about.

The main thing is to solve this "platform" issue and get her shooting her choice and working towards her proficiency and the comfort level she'll need to do as well as she'd like. I have a bunch of various powered handloads and some factory standard .38 Special and some +P factory as well for testing depending on how it goes.

Thanks again for the advice and solidarity, Guys!

VooDoo

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Good way to get a lot of rounds downrange and while it's on the light side, a .22 that she will carry and be confident in is better than the .38 she hates.

Good advice. She has a Colt 1903 model M in .32 ACP that she is comfortable with and shoots scary well with. I hand load .32 ACP to get a 75 gr. lead flatnose running almost 1100 fps (about 200 FPE!) and they shoot like butter for her in rapid fire with almost no recoil. She also has appropriated my Beretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact 9mm and shoots it very well.

The problem with her and autos is the mag releases and slide releases and safeties and racking the slides/operating the levers with 56 year old semi arthritic cancer survivor (5 years soon!!) hands....she always struggles with the complexity of the auto pistols but with a revolver it's point and pull the trigger. Reloading? Open it up, insert the speed loader, close it - shoot. she is her fathers daughter and has been around revolvers her whole life and is comfy with them bone deep.

She has a lot of options. We just need to find the best one.

VooDoo

 

[MK11]

I mean stick to a revolver in .22 or .22 mag--the LCR comes in both flavors now and I believe S&W is making some interesting .22 mag snubbies as well.

Either way, good luck, hope she finds one she likes.

 

[Hokkmike]

My wife decided she wanted to buy a handgun. (first timer) So I made suggestions but LET HER decide. We looked at the Ruger LCR. Ok, simplicity, reliability, looks, quality, and American made - great. When it came to caliber since we could not shoot sample guns I spoke from my experience, we watched some reviews on video of the LCR in .22, .22 mag, .38, and .357. Realizing we could always get bigger SHE decided on a .22. But it wasn't just the caliber. Like yours this one was used a and pretty good deal.

 

[DPris]

I've met people who were shot with .22s.

I've worked with the .22 LR LCR.

Understand if you choose a snub .22 LR you are carrying a very low-powered round to begin with, and more so in that short barrel that seriously reduces velocity and terminal performance.

If it's your choice, at least make it an educated one & understand its limitations.
Don't bank on firing one shot & waiting for the other guy to stop whatever he's doing.
Denis

 

[David E]

I'd be interested in seeing a picture of how you and/or your wife hold the gun. A video shooting it would be even better.

Another gun to consider is a 2" round butted Model 10

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Gotta bump this thread. We shot a bunch of hand loads and factory the last 3 days at the range with the LCR and a borrowed Ruger sp101 snubbie. I started Friday with some light handloads and worked my way up to shooting full house 158 gr. .38 +P Saturday.

I'm comfortable with my shooting of this little beast now so it stays in the fold. This is *not* a gun for beginners and I have around 300 rounds thru it the last 2 days alone. The gun is capable of astounding accuracy and has the best trigger I have ever felt in double action. Crisp. light...no creep, jitter, grit, in the pull and it breaks like glass for me. Kicks like an angry mule with hot loads but that's after the bullet is way out of the barrel and I have solved my flinch.

My Wife came to the same conclusion. She started with light loads and we worked a lot of not flinching, breath control, trigger, grip and head position and she started hitting very well with light loads. Then her confidence improved a lot....we took a break and shot her Colt Officers ACP with full house 230 gr. hardball which tossed her around but she hit very accurately out to 30'. she shot the whole box of 50! While she was high on accomplishment we switched back to the LCR (her request - she wants to make this gun work for her) and since she was now warm and acclimated to heavier recoil and loaded her with a semi stiff handload and 158 gr. bullets in her LCR.

No problems. She continued to improve and did not notice the recoil nor did her flinch return. She is not sore today...neither of us is. So, maybe crosstraining and some perspective and added experience with the teeny LCR snubbie was all we really needed.

I'll reiterate that snubbies are not for beginners. We find them to be the most challenging firearm to become proficient with, and therefor very rewarding when things settle down. We found that shooting the larger heavier sp101 mitigated some of the recoil but did not shoot any more accurately and it largely sat after 50 rounds of testing. We'll be shooting a Colt Detctive Special over the holidays but I think Kelly has made a choice to make the LCR work for her even if that means a lot of hard work and experience with the little beast.

VooDoo