I miss Cooper

[AZ_Rebel]

It is both interesting and sad to read the criticisms of Col. Cooper by those who did not know him. Those of us who did will always remember the difference he made in our lives. He made us better, stronger and more able to meet the challenges of a changing world. Col. Cooper pushed me to do things I never thought I would be able to do. Yes, I miss him a lot.

Unless you have sat on Jeff's porch at the Sconce with a bowl of Janelle's chili and listened to the man - you know not of what you speak when you criticize.

 

[KodiakBeer]

M1 Garand vs. variety of other bolt action WWII rifles showed that you can have both fast and accurate fire.

The Scout Rifle concept was not about battle rifles, it was about doing it all. The key concepts were that it had to be under 6 lbs in weight and less than a meter in length, effective at both close range and long range fire, magazine fed for quick reloads and so on. No factory rifle really fit the criteria until Steyr produced theirs, but it was ridiculously expensive.

 

[mack]

Yes, I miss Cooper. He was salty - guess some people like more salt than others. Personally I have always had a fondness for salt - I have always liked the guys that say it direct and up front and colorfully. But then I've always felt salty people are funny, refreshing, honest, unvarnished, entertaining, and interesting. Arrogant - I suppose someone could take it that way - but never saw arrogance so much as a strong opinion and someone who didn't apologize for who he was or what he believed. Can't say I agreed with everything Cooper wrote - but that wasn't the point anyway - men can disagree.

The world is too pc now - and the salt has lost its savor - how boring - and disingenuous. We need more people like Col. Cooper and not less.

 

[Maia007]

Very well stated, SharpsDressed.

 

[ilbob]

Cooper strikes me as a fairly typical control freak, who thought it was his way or the highway, and his acolytes still think that way. He was a strong personality and strong personalities tend to engender one of two things.

Extreme personal loyalty to the point where he can do no wrong.

The other way it can go is people are put off by it and think the guy is an a$$, and ignore what useful knowledge he does have just because his personality is so abrasive to them.

Those kind of guys are very useful in certain roles, such as military officers. But you need other control freaks around them to keep them on track. When they get out in the civilized world and are not able to keep this personality defect under control on their own, it can be a problem.

I take from these kind of people what I can get. His firearm's knowledge was top notch, and he was one of the first to suggest civillians really needed to train themselves in the use of firearms for self defense, and practice those skills in an organized way. I don't think all that much of the scout rifle idea as the end all of firearms, but it was a well thought out, and thought provoking idea, and I am smart enough to realize that I might well be wrong about that.

He did a whole lot more for the 2A with the various firearm training and safety messages he preached then I ever will and I deeply appreciate him for that. Guys like him are few and far between.

 

[Nushif]

Nushif,

Has he published something that isn't pro 2A? I've never gotten that feeling from reading any of his books or articles.

Oh I'm sure when he writes it's pro 2A, I just don't see him parading in front of the government about it.

But it's not like I'm following his publications, either.

 

[DougDubya]

Cooper was "salty?"

If I remember anything about the good Colonel, he never expressed himself in what he termed "toilet language."

 

[Frank Ettin]

Cooper strikes me as a fairly typical control freak,...

One thing Jeff Cooper was not is a control freak. He had a strong and abiding belief that everyone was free to make his own mistakes.

If you took a class from him, as I did, he did expect you to do things his way. That was fair, since it's reasonable to believe that if you've come to him for instruction you expect to be instructed in his way. If you didn't, why did you come to him for instruction? You should have gone to someone else.

If you asked his advice, he'd tell you clearly and directly. If you told him what you planned or thought and asked his opinion, he'd tell you clearly and directly. But also very clearly, if you chose not to accept his advice, or if you rejected his opinion, that was entirely your business. He would never cajole, wheedle or manipulate anyone. He gave his advice and expressed his opinions freely, and often forcefully; but for him what you did with his advice or opinions was completely up to you.

If one has resolve in what they have found to believe, and they speak with assertion and confidence, then they may appear to be arrogant and full of themselves. On the other hand, they may just be sincere, frank, and earnest, and not worried about how they come across....only that they have stated themselves clearly. If we come to a point in our reasoning, double check it to insure validity, then we do not have to apologize if it offends someone...

Very true and certainly applicable to Jeff Cooper.

 

[ilbob]

Oh I'm sure when he writes it's pro 2A, I just don't see him parading in front of the government about it.

But it's not like I'm following his publications, either.

I have always gotten the impression that Ayoob is mostly about running his business.

Something that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[ilbob]

One thing Jeff Cooper was not is a control freak. He had a strong and abiding belief that everyone was free to make his own mistakes.

If you took a class from him, as I did, he did expect you to do things his way. That was fair, since it's reasonable to believe that if you've come to him for instruction you expect to be instructed in his way. If you didn't, why did you come to him for instruction? You should have gone to someone else.

Many control freaks are quite good at manipulating people who come in close contact with them.

As I said, it was my impression of the guy, someone I only knew of from his writings. Try reading some of his stuff without thinking he is the greatest thing since sliced bread, if that is possible for you. You may see what I mean. Or not. It is tough for most people to put aside their own preconceived notions (for me too).

 

[Frank Ettin]

...As I said, it was my impression of the guy, someone I only knew of from his writings....

I wasn't an "intimate" of his, but I did meet him and spend some time with him.

In 2001 I went to Gunsite to take a handgun class. He was the principal instructor. Chatting with him during a break, he discovered that I was also interested in auto racing. He invited me to his home the Sunday after class to watch the Grand Prix of Monte Carlo with him. So I spent that Sunday with him and his wife.

He was opinionated and arrogant. But was he a control freak? I vote "no."

 

[Yo Mama]

When I originally posted, I was thinking alot about leadership. It's just something right now that we need more than ever. I read his commentaries, and they are as relevant now as they ever were.

 

[ilbob]

He was opinionated and arrogant. But was he a control freak? I vote "no."

I am opinionated and at least somewhat arrogant too.

We are all different, and we all have our own set of character flaws.

The control freak personality type is not really a bad thing, in itself. Most people with that characteristic as a part of their personality learn to deal with it in an effective way and when the control freak part of their personality is not appropriate, they learn to turn it off, or at least tone it down to where it is tolerable by those around them.

I never had the privilege of corresponding with the man, or meeting him. He is one of the people I would like to have shook hands with and thanked though, even if I probably would not want to be around him a lot because I suspect his personality type would aggravate me.

 

[Old Fuff]

Jeff was a delight to be around. He was a gentleman of the highest order.

One time during a small group discussion we got onto the subject of opinions. He opined that everyone had a right to have opinions on any subject, but the value of each depended on the holder's experience and knowledge of the subject.

He also believed that if one had an opinion they were obligated to defend it in open debate. Through discussion and debate the best and most viable opinions would float to the top, while bad ones would be discovered and discarded.

Obviously he wasn't hesitant in aggressively defending his positions, and so in some quarters earned a reputation for being arrogant. Neither he nor I ever considered an aggressive defense to in itself equal arrogance.

 

[ilbob]

One time during a small group discussion we got onto the subject of opinions. He opined that everyone had a right to have opinions on any subject, but the value of each depended on the holder's experience and knowledge of the subject.

I am inclined to agree with him on the former, but I do not agree with him on the latter. One's opinions can be formed from more than experience and knowledge.

IMNSHO, it is not necessary, or desirable, to make every mistake yourself. You can learn from others.

Somewhat ironically, many of us might point to Cooper's works as supporting our own opinions on certain firearms topics, even if we do not have that experience and knowledge on our own. Does it make that opinion less valid that it is based on the opinions of someone else?

 

[Old Fuff]

but the value of each depended on the holder's experience and knowledge of the subject.

Experience: Learned through interaction between one's self and the subject.

Knowledge: Learned through interaction between one's self and others who share their knowledge or experience.

A viable opinion is more often then not, dependent on both.

 

[inherentical]

Cooper was "salty?"

If I remember anything about the good Colonel, he never expressed himself in what he termed "toilet language."

"Salty" isn't an insult, at least in the Marine Corps slang. It's more of a an "old and experienced" rather than the profanity-based definition. I'm not sure how it came about. Probably from time on Navy ships.

 

[sig220mw]

Well said SaxonPig!

 

[mack]

Salty in reference to language can mean profanity, but salty in reference to a person typically means - as taken from some online dictionaries:

Witty; pungent; earthy
sharp; piquant
rousing or quickening activity or the senses; "a stimulating discussion"
Sharp lively wit
To add zest or liveliness to
salt of the earth
A person or group considered as the best or noblest part of society.
worth (one's) salt
Efficient and capable.
liveliness or pungency his wit added salt to the discussion
dry or laconic wit

Which was my meaning - and not that he used salty language. Also see biblical references i.e. "salt of the earth."