I miss my Lee dies
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Mauser69
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The expander plug in Lee dies is a two step expander, just like the Lyman expander - it is pointless to buy both.
RealGun
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The only Lee expander I have and what is included in a 4-die set is the powder-through expander die. The expander plug exhibits no evidence of a two stage diameter. I never thought about any other kind of expander die from Lee in terms of handgun dies. I don't find any in their catalog. The EasyX rifle expander die does not appear to function with two stages either. I wouldn't mistake the flaring base for similarity to an M-die.
Mauser69
Member
The powder-through expander plugs in my Lee .38, .40 and .44 dies are all two-stage expanders. I can both see and feel the ridge where the top part gets just a little bigger, and I have measured them with calipers and compared them with the expander in my Lyman dies. Since those plugs are black, that step ridge is most obvious on a die that has done a lot of reloading, where the ridge shows as a slightly lighter color from the wear. Although the sizes between the Lee and Lyman steps are not exactly the same, they are so close as to be functionally identical IMO. The only difference between the Lee and Lyman profile is that the top step of the Lee expander does have a very very slight taper. That taper is so slight that you cannot accidentally create a grossly over-belled case mouth even if you horribly screw up the expander setting. The same CANNOT be said about a Lyman expander.
RealGun
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Have never seen a "black" Lee expander, and I have a bunch of them. I wonder if you are confusing an RCBS, plugs on which are indeed black.
RealGun
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I checked my Lee 45 ACP expander plug, and sure enough there is about a .010 flare before getting to the belling base. The problem with Lee dies in general is that they are too tight for being a good choice for loading lead bullets. I still need their powder through expander die to support the powder measure on my turret. The whole point with an M-die is to avoid lead shaving without overworking the brass unnecessarily. The distinct step in the M-die is a definite aid in getting a bevel base bullet to stand for seating.
Mauser69
Member
Gee, I guess I'll have to give you that one - technically they are not "black" - my bad for using such a specific word. But they are a dark grey metal, darker than my Lyman expander plug.
Here is a link to the picture of the two expanders side-by-side. You can clearly see the ring where the second step starts on the Lee expander, and you can also see that the total height of the second step is the same on both expanders. The most significant difference is that the Lyman expander has what amounts to a huge THIRD step to the expander - that part should never be in contact with the case mouth, but if someone really screws up the adjustment (such as forgetting to change it when going from .38 to .357), that third step will pretty much destroy the brass. That cannot happen with the Lee expander.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=217389&d=1451663542
Here is a link to the picture of the two expanders side-by-side. You can clearly see the ring where the second step starts on the Lee expander, and you can also see that the total height of the second step is the same on both expanders. The most significant difference is that the Lyman expander has what amounts to a huge THIRD step to the expander - that part should never be in contact with the case mouth, but if someone really screws up the adjustment (such as forgetting to change it when going from .38 to .357), that third step will pretty much destroy the brass. That cannot happen with the Lee expander.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=217389&d=1451663542
Mauser69
Member
I do not have that problem with lead bullets - I load a lot of them in .38Spl, .40S&W, and .44Spl, all with Lee dies (I rarely use the Lyman dies anymore except for the magnums, which I do in lower volume on my single stage press), and when properly adjusted, I get zero lead shaving with the Lee expander. That minor taper in the top step is more than sufficient for all of my lead reloads. The step is just as distinct on the Lee expander as it is on the Lyman, and my bullets do not fall over on either my 1000 progressive or Classic Turret presses.
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beag_nut
Member
Before I got the Lyman M die I had about 8-10 reloads before splitting, no matter how the Lee expander die was adjusted. After reading on THR about the Lyman, I gave it a try. Now, I don't get ANY splitting, on cases which some have had more than 20 reloads. Can't beat that. I think it's something about the geometry of the Lyman which makes it so much better.
I use the Lee 38 SW ptx plug as a "poor man's M die" for cast 9mm. It expands deeper than the 9mm plug and is taller than the 38/357 plug so it can reach the shorter case. The nice thing is that it was only $3 or so. I don't notice a step, but it works fine for me.
Mauser69
Member
Why would you want to expand deeper into the case? All that does is reduce neck tension. The shorter base of the Lee expander is another of the reasons I prefer it over Lyman for .40S&W; even with moderate crimp I never experience any setback. I do not play with the 9mm toys, but I assume the same benefit would apply.
oldreloader
Member
I use the standard Lee expanding powder through die that came with my die sets. I only load lead in both 9MM and 45ACP. I don't have any lead shaving and I have cases with over 20 reloads. Neck splitting is not a problem for me. Primer pockets on some cases enlarging is my worst problem.
RealGun
Member
You wrote earlier that the Lee is a taper rather than a step. I found the same thing. You also described how use makes the M-die's step more apparent as the finish wears.
I am glad that is working for you, but I have to accommodate a bullet feeder die, which clearly is more reliable for me with bevel-based bullets if preceded by the M-die. I want to be able to adjust it so I don't have to touch the bullet to finesse it before seating/crimp.
p.s. It occurred to me that unless one is using a Loadmaster, the Lee expander doesn't apply as an argument against other brands of 5 station presses using an M-die. The Lee powder measure might work on a five station progressive other than a Loadmaster, but I am guessing it would be rare for anyone to do that, if the press actually came with its own powder measure.
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Because if you try to shove some .358" sized 9mm lead bullet into a short expanded case, you will swage the bullet down. That's the whole idea of the Lyman "M" die. If/when you play with 9mm cast lead reloading, you'll know what I mean. I agree that there is no need to expand 40 S&W any further than the standard 40 S&W PTX stem and that 0.401" cast bullets don't get swaged when seating into a 0.398" expanded case.
The problem is 9mm barrels vary anywhere from 0.3545" to 0.357" or sometimes 0.358" so a cast bullet sized for a 0.357" barrel isn't happy when it is shoved into a 0.352" hole made for a 0.355" bullet.
My picture was meant to show that there isn't a step on the PTX stem.
walnut1704
Member
I'd like to point out that NOE makes M-style expanders for the Lee Powder through expanders. They used to have more than they show now, guess they aren't selling that well.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=91&osCsid=6j0rj208pcgil8dt6bjb0mo903
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=91&osCsid=6j0rj208pcgil8dt6bjb0mo903
I use there plugs for the Lee Universal belling die. They work great and I highly recommend them. If you're playing with cast bullets and need to make the bullets a bit fat, an NOE plug for 7 bucks beats buying a brand new "M" die.
RealGun
Member
I found the full array for pistol here.
The main issue for me would be the M-die effect on a 4-hole turret without having a station available for an actual M-die.
Truth be told, in Lee terms I am holding the bullet against adequate belling anyway. I use the M-die when I don't want to have to steady the bullet and get pinched during any decent cycling rate on a progressive
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