I need an accurate hunting bullet!

[coloradokevin]

Not sure if this is a better topic for here or "hunting", but figured I'd start here since I'm rolling my own...


I'm trying to find a suitably accurate hunting bullet that will allow for longer range shots than most hunters typically hunt.

I mostly shoot match bullets in my rifles, and they run perfectly in my gun. I'm confident that I could reliably put shots in the kill zone of an elk out to about 750 yards with a good read of the wind. While I don't plan to hunt quite that far, I do intend on being able to make shots to 600 yards. The thing is, my match bullet isn't suitable for hunting, and my hunting ammo isn't producing the accuracy I need to reasonably guarantee a hit at this distance.

What's generally considered a very accurate hunting-grade bullet that will handle game ranging in size from pronghorn to elk?


Here's where I'm at with equipment:

I'm shooting a .260 Remington, and feel confident on the ballistics of this caliber to 600 yards for hunting. With my current match load (41.4 grains of H4350 pushing a 140 grain Berger Hybrid Match bullet) I'm usually getting 5-shot 100 yard groups in the 0.4" or smaller range, and my alternate load using a 139 grain Lapua Scenar bullet produces similar results.

I tried running some Nosler 140 gr Accubonds today, but the best 5 shot group I pulled was right around an inch, with outlying groups in the 1.5-1.6" range at 100 yards. At distance I was able to put some of my shots on steel at 750 yards, but not with the regularity I've come to expect from my normal load. It did better at 600 yards, but I'm not sure I'm entirely satisfied at this point.

I've also considered trying some Berger VLD Hunting bullets, but I've heard a number of people say that these bullets are very sensitive to seating depth, and that they don't like to jump (most bullets loaded to magazine length in my gun leave me with a jump of around 0.045").


So any suggestions?

 

[Rule3]

I am no long range hunter but use Sierra bullets in 223 and 308. How about their gameking?? I like Noslers also.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1730/264-dia-65mm-140-gr-SBT

 

[rcmodel]

My suggestion?

Hunt, and get closer.

Killing paper at 600 yards with a .260 is one thing.

Killing an elk at 600 yards is quite another, when your bullet has slowed down to 1,600 FPS and hasn't enough velocity to reliably expand.

Then there is the matter of finding what you shoot when you get done hiking over to where you think you shot it, and it isn't there.

rc

 

[gamestalker]

Hi there Coloradokevin, I think I may be able to help you with this.

I've tried a lot of hunting bullets over the last 30+ years of reloading, and I keep coming back to the Speer Hot Core for long range big game purposes. It's a bonded core spitzer, and when I say bonded, I mean the core will absolutely not separate from the jacket what so ever, not even when being pushed at 3200 fps at the muzzle. I've tried their GS, or Grand Slam, and although it is excellent on thicker skinned big game, but it doesn't shoot as flat at extended distances as the Hot Core. I haven't yet tested the DC, or Deep Curl on game yet, but it sure does shoot accurately.

But that Hot Core is an amazing long range bullet. I've taken game out to 700 yards with it, and I was able to put it exactly where I aimed, right through the pump station. In all, I've taken deer, elk, bear, oryx, and antelope with it, and it has performed flawlessly. I mean absolutely flawlessly. I once shot a bull elk, and the only shot I had was with his butt facing me. But being it was the last day of the hunt, I was left with no other choice, so I took it. I got extremely lucky, and the bullet traveled straight up the spine, it didn't even so much as bruise any back strap. It busted through every single vertebra and finally came to rest at the base of the neck. When I retrieved the projectile, it was nicely mushroomed, and when I cleaned the bone off and weighed it, the 130 gr. .277" projectile had retained better than 90% of it's weight. and was fully intact.

Regarding accuracy, they have always produced under an inch for me at 100 yds.. I recently worked up a load for one of my 7mm RM actions, and it shot consistent groups of between 1/2" to just under an inch.

And another good point is, that they aren't an expensive projectile.

GS

 

[OYE]

I'm shooting a .260 Remington, and feel confident on the ballistics of this caliber to 600 yards for hunting.

I would rethink that. OYE

 

[coloradokevin]

My suggestion?

Hunt, and get closer.

Killing paper at 600 yards with a .260 is one thing.

Killing an elk at 600 yards is quite another, when your bullet has slowed down to 1,600 FPS and hasn't enough velocity to reliably expand.

Then there is the matter of finding what you shoot when you get done hiking over to where you think you shot it, and it isn't there.

rc

While I appreciate your concern, and figured that I'd see some responses like this, I don't think 600 yards is an unreasonable shot, and I can assure you that I didn't come to that number arbitrarily or arrogantly.

First, we have lots of open territory out here, and I've never believed that hunting has to be a one size fits all scenario. Some would say it isn't sporting to take a long shot, but then I often see that said by a lot of folks who can't make a clean shot at 200 yards.

I do appreciate different forms of hunting, and may actually be going for a bow hunt for elk if I can even make it out this year (the ultimate form of "real" hunting in my mind). My primary interest in this load will be for Pronghorn, where shots are usually on the longer side. But, I won't rule out elk class game with it. My main hesitation for using this gun for an elk hunt is actually that the rifle is too darn heavy for such a hunt… better suited for a stationary hunt.

Regardless, I must respectfully point out that you severely underestimated the ballistics of the .260 Remington cartridge. At 600 yards under the atmospheric conditions I normally encounter where I'd be hunting, my current load will arrive moving approximately 2138 fps, with an on-target energy of 1421 ft-lbs. Elk have certainly been humanely anchored with a lot less than that! As such, I set my theoretical outside limitation on range based on: 1) my confidence in my ability to reliably put the bullet in the kill zone in field conditions at that distance, and 2) my knowledge that my bullet would still be moving fast enough to expand at that distance.

 

[coloradokevin]

Hi there Coloradokevin, I think I may be able to help you with this.

I've tried a lot of hunting bullets over the last 30+ years of reloading, and I keep coming back to the Speer Hot Core for long range big game purposes. It's a bonded core spitzer, and when I say bonded, I mean the core will absolutely not separate from the jacket what so ever, not even when being pushed at 3200 fps at the muzzle. I've tried their GS, or Grand Slam, and although it is excellent on thicker skinned big game, but it doesn't shoot as flat at extended distances as the Hot Core. I haven't yet tested the DC, or Deep Curl on game yet, but it sure does shoot accurately.

But that Hot Core is an amazing long range bullet. I've taken game out to 700 yards with it, and I was able to put it exactly where I aimed, right through the pump station. In all, I've taken deer, elk, bear, oryx, and antelope with it, and it has performed flawlessly. I mean absolutely flawlessly. I once shot a bull elk, and the only shot I had was with his butt facing me. But being it was the last day of the hunt, I was left with no other choice, so I took it. I got extremely lucky, and the bullet traveled straight up the spine, it didn't even so much as bruise any back strap. It busted through every single vertebra and finally came to rest at the base of the neck. When I retrieved the projectile, it was nicely mushroomed, and when I cleaned the bone off and weighed it, the 130 gr. .277" projectile had retained better than 90% of it's weight. and was fully intact.

Regarding accuracy, they have always produced under an inch for me at 100 yds.. I recently worked up a load for one of my 7mm RM actions, and it shot consistent groups of between 1/2" to just under an inch.

And another good point is, that they aren't an expensive projectile.

GS

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give those a shot and see how they work out. They do seem like a pretty affordable choice, assuming they run well in my gun.

I'm also thinking of trying some of the Barnes bullets. I've shot a few of their factory loads through this gun out to 550m, and it performed decent for a factory load… perhaps I can improve it in a hand load.

 

[JimKirk]

Some how I missed the "elk" part ... I have nothing to offer ...

 

[MtnCreek]

140 Nosler BT or 140 Amax might shoot well enough for you. Personally I'd feel a little under gunned, but I'm no elk hunter.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

A 30-06 in any bullet weight will reach out to 600 yards and have enough energy left to take just about anything on the North American continent.

 

[49willys]

I'll "second" the Speer bullet.They expand well at slower speeds,and they are generally pretty accurate.

 

[OYE]

At 600 yards under the atmospheric conditions I normally encounter where I'd be hunting, my current load will arrive moving approximately 2138 fps, with an on-target energy of 1421 ft-lbs.

When we change the ballistic coefficient from the .618 down to .508 or down about .484 or below for the hunting bullets that you wish to use, those numbers change pretty dramatically though don't they.
OYE


Now those numbers for the hunting bullets are starting to look familiar now. Let's see ......................
thinking........... Aha that's the old Norma 139 grain factory loading for the 6.5 x 55 swedish !!!!
139 grain bullet at 870 m/s (2854 f/s). Son of a gun we love those old swedes. OYE

I'm usually getting 5-shot 100 yard groups in the 0.4" or smaller range, and my alternate load using a 139 grain Lapua Scenar bullet produces similar results.

I tried running some Nosler 140 gr Accubonds today, but the best 5 shot group I pulled was right around an inch, with outlying groups in the 1.5-1.6" range at 100 yards.

We hope you'll be able to do better than that. That really isn't the level of accuracy we would expect out of a long range hunting rifle. Most of our hunting rifles with stardard barrels will shoot sub .5 inch groups with run of the mill hunting bullets. Good luck tweaking those in. OYE

 

[Andrew Leigh]

@Coloradokevin.

what would your powder and load be?

Done a couple of simulations with a 140gr. and to get circa 2130fps @ 600yds you would need to start out at 3200fps which is rather hot. I could not get a powder to give me that speed without being overpressure or every powder I simulated would be over 115% case fill.

Cheers

 

[Sunray]

Elk out to about 750 yards is too far with a .260 Rem. A 140 will drop 5 feet at 500 with a 200 yard zero and about 1100 ft/lbs. of energy. 10.5 feet drop at 700 with under 800 ft/lbs. of energy. Over 6 feet at 600.
Can you hit a 9" pie plate, every time, at 600 yards?
Match bullets, of any brand, are not made for hunting anything but varmints.
"...my current load will arrive moving approximately 2138 fps, with an on-target energy of 1421 ft-lbs..." No it won't.

 

[readyeddy]

I would try Sierra #1730. I believe it's their heaviest GameKing in .264 with boat tail for long distance performance.

 

[OYE]

There's actually a lot of information available about what bullets work for the 6.5 x 55 and or the 260 remington, and how they perform at the various ranges on game. The 6.5 x 55 cartridge has been around a long time and it's performance with various bullets is well documented.
OYE

 

[35 Whelen]

You say your match bullets group .4" @ 100 and the Accubonds "only" grouped 1.5" - 1.6". You do realize that, at least mathematically, the Accubonds would group under 10" at 100 yds. Now, I've only killed 4 bull elk in my lifetime, so I'm no expert, but in my experience they're pretty large animals with a large vital area and a 9" group should easily work for your desire to shoot at extended ranges.

I've mostly used a 35 Whelen but I've tried Sierra BTSP's, Speer's SP's, Nosler Partitions, and Barnes TSX's. The TSX's were just insanely accurate over and over:



With the Whelen, even during load development, it was extremely rare for them to group 1"+.

If I were you I'd spend every spare moment I had shooting at extended ranges. You're biggest challenge will be judging wind; not only its speed, but direction. I have a 600 yd. range at my house that was used for practice for High Power competition. The target is a 36" steel circle that replicates the repair center of a 600 yd. target. I can tell you with certainty that if the wind is misjudged by a mere 5 mph, the target will be completely missed with typical match loads in .22 and .30 calibers.

Personally, if I had any desire to hunt at those ranges, I'd use something a little larger too. I've seen bulls with .35 caliber bullets through their lungs go for some distance before giving it up.

I photographed these bulls on a hunt and while I SO wanted to shoot the big boy, they were a little over 500 yards away across the head of a canyon.



I could tell by watching the tops of the spruce trees that the wind was different on the far side of the canyon, shifty and variable, than it was on my side. So, I just enjoyed watching them until my patience paid off another bull appeared a hair over 350 yds. away. Got him.

35W

 

[X-Rap]

I'd sure give the Ballistic Tips a try, when I get the time I'm going to spend a little more time working with the Bergers as well.
I too am not surprised with the expected criticism, if only you would have said you were shooting an xyz magnum you could have really brought em out.

 

[notaglockfanboy]

@Coloradokevin.

what would your powder and load be?

Done a couple of simulations with a 140gr. and to get circa 2130fps @ 600yds you would need to start out at 3200fps which is rather hot. I could not get a powder to give me that speed without being overpressure or every powder I simulated would be over 115% case fill.

Cheers

I would like to know the answer to this question as well. Unless you have some magical load that no other reloader in the world has figured out, I think your math is flawed a bit or you are simply hoping that bullet to that velocity at that distance.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Is it too strong of a statement to say that I wouldn't consider a 600 yard shot in the field, either 'ethical', or 'hunting'?

 

[coloradokevin]

I would like to know the answer to this question as well. Unless you have some magical load that no other reloader in the world has figured out, I think your math is flawed a bit or you are simply hoping that bullet to that velocity at that distance.

Well, judging by the number of folks I've seen running this load at matches, it's definitely no secret. But, more on that in a minute.

Is it too strong of a statement to say that I wouldn't consider a 600 yard shot in the field, either 'ethical', or 'hunting'?

Probably. If I can comfortably make such a shot and deliver an appropriate bullet to a target at that distance I think it can be considered ethical. As for "hunting", I addressed that issue previously with regard to my feeling on the subject. Hunting is not a sport where the game is on equal footing with the hunter. Every tool we use gives us an advantage over the game.

If I were you I'd spend every spare moment I had shooting at extended ranges. You're biggest challenge will be judging wind; not only its speed, but direction. I have a 600 yd. range at my house that was used for practice for High Power competition. The target is a 36" steel circle that replicates the repair center of a 600 yd. target. I can tell you with certainty that if the wind is misjudged by a mere 5 mph, the target will be completely missed with typical match loads in .22 and .30 calibers.

Believe me, I totally get that. While I'm quite envious of your at-home range, I do still get out on at least a weekly basis to shoot at distance. My normal spot gives me easy access to 750 yards, and I regularly shoot to 1,000-1,250 yards at some other locations. Long range shooting is one part science, two parts skill, and some part voodoo by most people's estimation. I usually shoot at 6-12" steel plates, and a full-size IPSC steel plate at 1,000+.

The Raton Sporting Rifle Match is also a place I visit from time to time, schedule permitting.

Also, nice view from your hunting spot… don't worry, there are plenty of shots I take a pass on, too. But, when the conditions and terrain are right, and I feel confident in my wind call in that spot



Sigh. I should have seen this coming. First, a big thanks for some of the bullet suggestions that have been given so far. I do appreciate them, and would like to see them keep coming.

But, please let me address a few things (so we can get this back on track without you guys thinking I'm some yahoo who's shooting from the hip here:

1) I spend most of my time shooting at long range. That's how I've established the distances I'm comfortable shooting at when I'm thinking of shooting something that I want to humanely kill. But, I realize that the game changes if I drop to a bullet with a lower ballistic coefficient. How much this matters depends a lot on the bullets, external ballistics, and my comfort level with the end result.

2) I think it's asinine to suggest that a gun needs to shoot better than a consistent 0.4" 5-shot group at 100 yards to be effective for hunting to 600 yards. This isn't a bench rest gun, and most of the guys who claim that they shoot 1/4" groups all day long in field conditions are simply unable to back that claim up (I remember laughing as I watched such a challenge play out on Snipershide in a couple of different threads in the past). Yes, I've printed a few of those tiny groups too, but I was giving an honest assessment of average group size being slightly below half an inch, while shooting from the cold hard ground with a bipod and a rear bag. Such conditions may not be obtainable in all field conditions, either.

3) I'm not living in the land of make believe when it comes to my current MATCH bullet. Again, I recognize that a bullet with a lower B.C. is going to change the game some, but that's why I'm also here looking for an accurate bullet that is suitable for this task.

Since it has been repeatedly asked in this thread, here's my current load and equipment, and its performance based on the conditions where I would be hunting elk (figured for a density altitude of 10,000 feet). Down here on the high plains my normal density altitude readings are closer to 7,000-8,000 feet during fall hunting season, so the ballistics would be slightly less favorable in those conditions (Pronghorn territory). But, on a 10,000 foot DA day for elk hunting:

Accuracy International AX rifle with a 24" barrel and an SAS Arbiter suppressor, wearing a S&B 3-20x50 PMII scope with a H2CMR reticle (now you can see why I said I'm not planning to haul this gun on hunts where I'm walking a lot).

.260 Remington. 140 grain Berger Hybrid Match bullet, sitting over 41.4 grains of H4350 powder, in a Lapua case, using a Winchester LR primer.

That load produces the following results, based on data provided from the Ballistic AE computer, and verified repeatedly in the field. NOTE: velocities were obtained from a Magnetospeed V3 chronograph:

Muzzle:

2763 fps, 2373 ft-lbs

100 yards (zero distance):

2652 fps, 2187 ft-lbs

300 yards:

DROP: 0.9 MIL, 2439fps, 1849 ft-lbs

600 yards:

DROP: 3.3 MIL, 2129fps, 1408 ft-lbs


(NOTE: in field conditions down here on the plains with a DA of 7,000 feet I would still produce the following results at 600 yards: 3.3 MIL of drop, 2,082 fps at target, with a remaining energy of 1347 fps).


My general (personal) rule of thumb for elk is 2,000 fps and 1,400 ft-lbs of energy or more, which puts my outside limit at the 600 yard distance for the load I listed above, in those conditions. AGAIN, other loads may change this, but I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck! Also, to clarify for the person who asked about it, I'm not planning to shoot elk at 750 yards. And, I'm merely trying to develop a load that will still perform accurately to the edge of what I consider to be the "hunting envelope" for this cartridge. Most shots would likely be closer, as they are for most of us in most hunting situations.

 

[GaryL]

I use Nosler BTs in my hunting rifle for up north in 30-06. I went for the 180gr, and they do a wonderful job. My hunting rifle holds a decent pattern with them, and doesn't like much of anything, which is probably why I got it reasonably priced at a show. I don't have any experience with the 260 cal, so can't speak to that. I will say that I ran those hunting loads through a Win M70 and they will hold under an inch at 200yds.

 

[OYE]

There's actually a lot of information available about what bullets work for the 6.5 x 55 and or the 260 remington, and how they perform at the various ranges on game. The 6.5 x 55 cartridge has been around a long time and it's performance with various bullets is well documented.
OYE

Read that again guy. I guess I may have to change my opinion on long range hunting.
We were under the assumption that everyone was using calibers that were capable of doing the job. Not calibers that are proven not to be reliable at long range. OYE

 

[coloradokevin]

Despite the reservations I spoke of at the top of this thread regarding touchy seating depth issues, I am thinking of giving the 140 grain Berger VLD hunting bullet a try. I've had great luck with their Hybrid Match bullet for match shooting, and if the VLD Hunting shoots accurately in my gun it is just about ballistically identical to my match bullet.

Have any of you shot anything large and living with that bullet? All of these caliber arguments aside, does the VLD Hunting bullet have a design that is suitable for elk? To me the construction of this bullet doesn't appear all that different from that of their match bullets, which makes me concerned about it for very large game. I imagine it wouldn't give me any issues with a pronghorn or a muley, but elk are in another league.

For those of you who have run this bullet, what kind of success have you had? Any thoughts?

A 30-06 in any bullet weight will reach out to 600 yards and have enough energy left to take just about anything on the North American continent.

Agreed. And, actually, while the .30-06 will come out of the muzzle with more energy, it will get to that 600 yard line with about 250 fps less velocity than my .260 Rem, and carrying almost the exact same energy (this is based on a 180 grain Hornady bullet being launched at 2,700fps; your individual milage may vary, of course). Now, we could argue the benefits of a skinny and long bullet vs a shorter and fatter bullet, but I'm happy to call these two a wash at this distance.

So, what bullet do you like for shooting game at that distance?

 

[Water-Man]

I use the 130gr. TSX out of my Tikka T3 6.5x55 SE. MV of 2950.

I have not taken an elk at 600 yds. though.