I need help with a Whinchester 1917 conversion to 300 wby mag

JFrank

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This rifle came into the shop Monday and I’m tasked with a bit of research and pricing. I haven’t bore scoped it yet nor cleaned it up.
Curious as to who might share a few details about these old conversions ?
All I have at the moment is that It was manufactured in March 1918.
Thanks
Jim
 

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The usual sporterizing story, a cheap surplus rifle turned into a pretty good hunting rifle back when a gunsmith's time was not so expensive.
The rear sight and its "ears" have been removed. There were two semi-standard contours for which rear scope bases were made. Drilled and tapped for scope mounts.
The floor plate has been straightened out. There are three or four ways to go about that.
Commercial Monte Carlo stock.
Either the GI barrel rechambered or replaced for .300 Weatherby.
Commercial polish and blue.

The irregular brass inlay has markings but it looks like there was some effort to scrape the inscription out.

I can't guess a resale price but it probably isn't high. Too many cheap plastic rifles on the market.
 
I dont know what more information you want;
these conversions are known as sporterizations and most 1917s were sporterized in private hands or by a retailer. That looks like a after market stock, pretty well done job overall. It would've been done sometime in the 70s.
The pricing on sporter 1917s is typically not high, anywhere from 200$ to 500$ would be the going rate across the country. Found one for 300$ once, another for 250$ which is also the same price I paid for mine sporter.

EDIT: The reason for the cheap price is because sporterization is usually seen as 'defacing' from a military collectors perspective, thus the prices on sporter examples is not competitive. There are some people who buy them up, like me, but thats largely because its so cheap. Most buyers of old military rifles want them in mil-spec configuration, so the sporters just go for unwanted prices.
 
The 300 weatherby magnum is more powerful than the '06. I'm sure the action is strong but at 100+ years, do you want to take that chance?

Will the internal mag hold the 300 weatherby rounds?
 
The 300 weatherby magnum is more powerful than the '06. I'm sure the action is strong but at 100+ years, do you want to take that chance?

Will the internal mag hold the 300 weatherby rounds?
No idea on the mag yet but that’s a good question.
 
and yes $400-500 might end up being the asking price and see what the offers are. I think she did some trading for it. Probably not in it very much.
Sounds good, and I'd do a offer of $300 so keep that as the reserve price.

I'm sure the action is strong but at 100+ years, do you want to take that chance?
The 1917s have held up very well, it was a over built action for what it was in the day. Unless this thing was shot alot then that's a good question.
 
Here is one unhappy customer with a M1917 belted magnum conversion. Want to create more?

Thoughts on my sporterized Springfield M1903?


I've experienced a catastrophic receiver failure. I will tell you flat out it's NOT something you EVER want to happen.

Over 100 stitches in my face/neck, shattered jaw that was wired shut for 12 weeks, a hole in my neck to breath through, weeks of missed work, weeks of being fed through a straw, lost 20-25% of my body weight, permanent nerve and tissue damage resembling the effects of a light stroke.

Hop right on that train Dude cause my seat is empty.

One of the "glass hard" P17 actions re-barreled to a belted magnum. Those actions are some of the strongest known(sarcasm). Some of the "over treated" ones are really strong right up to the point when they grenade.


Let us differentiate between material properties and process controls. Sure, the nickel steel of the M1917 would have had superior material properties to the plain carbon steels of the era, but, only if the metal was originally of good quality and the steel was not burnt during production. Neither of these is particularly true for M1917’s.

Howe’s book “The Modern Gunsmith” has a whole chapter on steels. In that chapter is a warning not to chamber M1917 barrels to magnum calibers.

If the caliber 300 Magnum cartridge is chambered in the U.S. Model 1917 Enfield rifle, meant for the caliber 30-06 cartridge, the change is very apt to make a bad gun barrel blow open, particularly if the metal should contain any small pipes, segregations, or abnormal changes in the structure of the metal form the surface to the bore near the breech. Those making such changes may not know that the steel produced at the end of the First World War was not so carefully selected as gun-barrel steels are today

Firstly, no one should expect that war materials were built under any incentive system than get them out the door. Then, the manufacturing technology of WW1 was a pre vacuum tube technology, and it is likely perverse incentives were in place. I read somewhere a post by someone who knew a forge shop worker at Eddystone. The workers in the forge shop were paid piece rate. If they cranked up the forge furnace temperatures, they could stamp out parts faster. Yes they produced bad parts, but they got paid more money doing that. Incidentally, I was told Springfield Armory forge shop workers were also paid piece rate. Might have been the same at Winchester, piece rate was common.

While the material selection for the M1917 was better than the Mauser, the M1903, even Lee Enfields, it does not mean much if the nickel steels had a lot of slag and inclusions and was burnt in the factory.

Take a look at the 1947 Rock Island Ordnance Department memos, where the authors recommend only using them as drill rifles.

Check your M1917's for safety issues. Eddystones especially..


Guys,

All the books make a huge a fuss on the M1903 low number. But the documents paint an entirely different picture on the low numbers, than what the books state.

But what I did find, that I have never seen in any book, is there were a lot of safety issues with the M1917's. Even in WWI, Andrew from Archival Research Group found more M1917's failed than low number M1903's.

This is in a string of documents where they are inspecting M1917's to be sold to NRA members immediately after WWII. This is just the tale end of the docs where they recommend that no one fire live ammunition out of a Midvale Steel M1917 (Eddystone).

They also had substantial problems with every maker and M1917's not headspacing correctly. A lot of these rifles were sold with paperwork declaring they were not safe and they should only be used in Drill practice or in firing blank ammunition.

They did not mark these rifles in anyway as not being safe, and the paperwork on these is most likely long gone for most. These rifles are sitting in our safes as we speak...

Please check your M1917 rifle's headspace and examine it for cracks. In the docs they detail that they looked for cracks of M1's with black lights. I assume then everyone can do the same now.

Just keep a look out as everything in our books focus on only the M1903 low numbers being unsafe. Well our authors failed to warn us of problems with the M1917.


A lot of cheap military actions have been inappropriately converted to cartridges that operate at a higher pressure than the military cartridge, and with belted magnums, increase the load on the receiver sets, and bolt lugs because the cartridge head is wider.

In terms of pressures, I provide the following as a back of the envelope analysis:

From Cartridges of the World

30-06 case head diameter 0.470” Area 0.1735 square inches
300 Win Mag case head diameter 0.515” Area 0.2083 square inches

Bolt face loads

M1903 30-06 design loads 0.1735 in ² X 50,000 lbs/ in ² = 8,675 lbs

300 Win Mag = 0.2083 in ² X 65,000 lbs/ in ² = 13, 539 lbs

The 300 Win Mag provides an 56% increase in bolt thrust over standard 30-06 military loads.

Posters can argue whether cartridge OD, which assume load at maximum case head separation is the proper analysis, or whether bolt thrust calculated by case ID is the better way to go. Try the other method, but I am sure, the percentage increase bolt thrust is not going to change by much.

There is a lot of risk, and unknown, unknowns with vintage actions and inappropriate conversions. An action built in wartime conditions, using the steels of the era which have high amounts of residuals, slag, and you really don't know if the things were heat treated properly, one because eyeballs judged temperatures in many shops, and that the muffle furnaces of the era provided erratic temperature distributions during heat treat. There are a lot of unknowns with vintage actions. And it is just not worth having a customer lose his face with that thing. I assume, he could sue the shop over this?
 
The 300 weatherby magnum is more powerful than the '06. I'm sure the action is strong but at 100+ years, do you want to take that chance?

Will the internal mag hold the 300 weatherby rounds?
These actions are strong and will handle the Wby round. A noted Alaskan bear guide bought a 1917 beater/sporter in 458 Win from me years ago as a second 458 in camp. It was fugly, but it shot where pointed.

Many large magnums were built on the action and are still thumping at both ends. I know a guy who has been using one in 404 in Africa for 50 years.

As with any mil-surp, have it checked by someone who has the knowledge and equipment.
 
By what Slamfire said, maybe it would not be a good idea to sell this one. If I bought it, I'd reload for it using lower pressure loads. But no guarantee a customer would do this;

I apologize for what I wrote earlier. As for most 1917s still being in good shape, i stand by that because most are still functional. Are they truly the strongest? I have no idea currently. I like mine, and that's what is important but they are only 30-06.
 
Are they truly the strongest? I have no idea currently. I like mine, and that's what is important but they are only 30-06.

Prior to WW2, through the publication Man at Arms, and the American Rifleman, the Army Ordnance writers and the Regular Army Brigadier General who was the editor, promoted this Utopic view of all things Army. The Army was the best, its products were the best that ever was, and ever will be. And since the magazine was about shooting, both the M1903 and M1917 were of course, beyond perfection. Echos of this self serving, narcissistic grandiosity, are still rattling around in the shooting community.

The M1917 was a military action, and reflected some of the crazy military thinking of the time. Remember that the allies never issued parachutes to their pilots in WW1? Took the Germans a couple of years before their pilots had parachutes. Both sides considered pilots disposable, and if their planes went down, why should not the pilot? The German Military was running out of people faster, so they began to understand as disposable pilots were in normal situations, they were running out of them. Hence, parachutes. I am of the opinion this callousness towards human life, injuries, etc, is seen the M1903 and M1917 action. Shooter safety is not much of a consideration. If the action went bang, all was good. If the case head blew up, and the shooter lost his eye or face because the action vented gas directly in his face, well, there are always more Doughboys!

Gas handling in both the M1917 and M1903 is not even an after thought. Neither action protects the shooter against gas release. The M98 is just superb in this regard.
Pierce a primer and in both the M1903 and M1917, gas is going to flow straight down the firing pin into your eye. Gas will also travel down the left bolt race, under the bolt, directly into the shooters eyes and face. We know from ads, that this limitation was recognized in the M1917, and the after market was providing gas blocks for the firing pin.

M4vVNh9.jpg


As so far as being "strong", both the M1903 and the M1917 are strong, till they are not. Neither supports the case head well, and that cone breech is going to vent gas inside that receiver ring, and it will be the lucky shooter whose receiver ring does not shatter in a case head rupture.


rQZXM8q.jpg



WW1 military actions all have their issues. As a class, they are not as safe as later actions. The Mauser M1898 had the best shooter safety features, but WW1 era M1898 fired cartridges of 43,300 psia, and the metallurgy of the era makes the use of higher pressure cartridges in those actions, risky. Period metallurgical technology produced crappy steel regardless of whether the steel was made in German, the US, or the UK. Old World technology in the Old World produced steels inferior in metal properties compared to the same composition today.

10.5.2 Making Steel up to 1870

10.5.3 Making Steel after 1870


Go to this site if you want an extensive education on the material properties of IRON, STEEL and SWORDS, . The author put a lot of work into the subject.

So the thing is, no one knows how strong, or how metallurgically good, their M1917 receiver is. I invite ideas about non destructive techniques. I think a test sequence similar to what is used for fire extinguishers. Fire extinguishers are expanded and contracted in a water tank. The amount of expansion has limits, and so does contraction. If the fire extinguisher expands too much, or bursts, it is bad. If if does not relax enough, it is bad. The shooting community thinks if the rifle survives one overload, that makes it good. Well, not in the long run. Naramore was warning about fatigue lifetime:

Principals and Practice of Loading Ammunition Earl Naramore
Page 86

Kinds of failures

There are two kinds of failures. Failure occurs when a single application of force exceeds the ultimate strength of the steel. This is the kind of failure that results from head separation or failures and is mistakenly believed by many shooter to be the only kind of failure that occurs; i.e, as long as a load does not develop enough pressure to burst the gun, it is safe. It is probably this mistaken belief that leads to the overloading of ammunition.

The second kind of failure is classed as a fatigue failure. Most mechanical parts fail as the result of the repeated applications of forces that are well below their yield strengths. The repeated stressing, however small, results in the accumulation of stress that concentrates around some stress raiser. When the total stress is high enough, the part breaks. These failures always occur suddenly and without warning. There is no initial expansion or visible cracking to give the least indication of any weakness.

All the conditions for fatigue failure are present in firearms. The forces applied in them are suddenly applied and the unit stress and unit deformation are double those of static or slowly applied loads of equal value. The forces are repeatedly applied, although not in the sense of the frequency that stress is imparted to an automobile connecting rod. What is more, the forces are of a magnitude that it is high in proportion to the yield strength of the steels used. ……………


Page 88

We have seen that, in the .30-06, with a chamber pressure of 48.000 psia, the effective total force on the bolt face could not exceed 8,000 pounds by very much. This is reduced by the stretch of the cartridge case. More of this would be lost in compressing the bolt lugs and their shoulder so, under these conditions, the amount of tensile stress reaching the outside of the receiver might not exceed two or three tons.

When the pressure drops, all of the stress does not leave the steel and the amount retained as stored energy is not the same at all points. The maximum rated pressure takes into account the accumulation of these stresses, the presence of the stress raisers normally present in the design and manufacture and the elastic limits of the steels used. As long as reloaders heed this limitation on pressure, they can expect a long and trouble free service from their firearms. However, when these pressure are grossly and persistently exceeded, the stored energy builds up much more rapidly for it increases, not directly as the increase in force, but as the square of it. The fact that a rifle may stand a few loads developing excessively high pressures does not signify that it will stand them if they are used persistently. If the tensile strengths of the steels were known, the areas of stressed surfaces could be measured and with known pressures, the probable life of a rifle could be figured. As I said before, there is nothing magic about this.


Post WW2, gunsmiths in print where shilling up a storm, all trying to sell their services. Foreign military rifles and actions were cheap, and the articles in print, fooled potential customers that they could create a rifle as good, or not better, than a M70 or M721, using a military action as the basis. Even at the time, even with relatively cheap gunsmithing labor, at the end of the process, a custom rifle like this

2ggFvNS.jpg


was going to be as expensive, if not more, than a brand new M70 or this rifle:


d5xB0ra.jpg


and I am going to say, that Remington M722 is absolutely superior in shooter protection features, and is made of better steels, under better process controls, than that WW1 era Rock Island receiver above.

three rings of steel support the case head:


2DwvsaL.jpg




BREECH CLOSING CONSTRUCTION FOR FIREARMS 2,585,195

Merle H. Walker, lion, N. Y., assignor to Rem ington Arms Company, Inc., Bridgeport, Conn., a corporation of Delaware Application

Prior art firearms of the type employing fixed metallic ammunition have always been dependent upon the metallic cartridge case for securing obturation with the walls of the barrel chamber and preventing the rearward escape of gas from the barrel. As a result, the head of high intensity center-fire rifle cartridges has always been a massive chunk of brass of usually adequate strength to bridge over gaps between the end of the bolt and the chamber mouth, or clearance cuts for extractors, ejectors, and the like. However, in spite of this massive construction, the heads of cartridges, due to metallurgical deficiencies, barrel obstructions, or other difficulties, all too often fail in service, releasing white hot gas at pressures in excess of 50,000 pounds per square inch into the interior of the receiver. With some modern commercial and military rifles the effects of a burst head are disastrous, completely wrecking the action and seriously injuring or killing the shooter. One of the better known military rifles (M1903) presents in alignment with the shooter's face a straight line passage down the left hand bolt lug guide groove, which, even though the receiver proper does not blow up, channels high pressure gas and fragments of the cartridge head into the location where they can do the most damage. It has been often, and truthfully, said that the Strength of most rifles is no greater than that of the head of the cartridges intended for use therein. The primary object of this invention is the provision of a firearm construction which is not thus dependent upon the strength of a cartridge head, ordinarily formed of a material of relatively low strength by comparison with the ferrous alloys used for the firearm structure.
 
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I have nothing good to say about the OP rifle. As a sporterization, this one is too far gone to allow a restoration to the original condition, and in its sporterized state, it's not rare or desirable. I would rank this one as being nearly worthless.
 
View attachment 1205369This the only stamp on this barrel.

Looks like the guy who rebarreled the rifle got his W punch turned around on first stamping. I can't throw rocks as it has happened to me. Nice checkering job.

You can't blame the small gunsmiths who did this as no in print authority was warning against rechambering these old rifles in cartridges that operated at high pressures than the military cartridge. Read the articles of the period, the gun plumbers in print were machinists, not mechanical engineers. They just assumed the actions would take it, and they wanted customer money. They also did not warn that belted magnums operating at the same pressure as the military cartridge, will increase the bolt thrust on the lugs and receiver seats, due to an increase in cartridge base diameter. Of course, no one chambering their rifle in a Weatherby magnum is going to keep chamber pressures at 43,000 psia, or less.

Today there is a lot of money to be make in product liability. Big awards, see it all the time in TV commercials. Remember strict liability: Known or should have known. There was a time when only the seller was liable for product liability. Now manufacturer's are, in fact, I suspect the whole chain down to the seller can be sued.
 
Or buy a barrel and change it back to 30-06

The bolt face has been widened* and the side rails/magazine lips have probably been widened for the bigger cartridge. No going back on this one.

*In those days the P14 .303 was popular for belted magnum conversions, its bolt face was already wide enough.

Surely Norma had mechanical engineers and maybe even metallurgists. The .308 Norma Magnum was said to be designed to rechamber surplus .30-06s without thinning the barrel wall too much at the shoulder. Nothing said about action strength. The Weatherby is a lot longer.
 
Surely Norma had mechanical engineers and maybe even metallurgists. The .308 Norma Magnum was said to be designed to rechamber surplus .30-06s without thinning the barrel wall too much at the shoulder. Nothing said about action strength. The Weatherby is a lot longer.

Just whom said the 308 Norma Magnum was designed to rechamber surplus 30-06 barrels? Are you sure it was not some Confident Idiot making that up, to justify running a 308 Norma Magnum reamer down a cheap military surplus barrel?

European practice is entirely different from the US. Europeans have set up a Governmental, bureaucratic system, to protect themselves, from themselves. I don't know what proof houses can allow, or disallow. For all I know, an owner can bring in some dangerous kludge, and the proof house can refuse to test the thing. And then, if the kludge does not get the proof house chop, it can't be sold. That's what I would do if I ran a proof house. I would see no reason to expose my people, my equipment, my facilities, my reputation for due diligence, to home made bombs made by fools.

American practice is, "you can't tell me nothing" so American's do dangerous things. Ignorance does not create caution, it in fact, creates confidence. We are all Confident idiots.
 
Just whom said the 308 Norma Magnum was designed to rechamber surplus 30-06 barrels?
Probably some enthusiast publication of the day, long since discarded.
Ken Waters did not exactly say that was a design criterion just that apparently it was meant for rechambering sufficiently strong .30-06 rifles. But in those days we were still operating under the assumption that a "high number" 1903 or a 1917 was sufficiently strong for anything that could be made to fit.

Oh, by the way, Sharpe shows the .30 Super cordite load at 45000 psi, HiVel #3 taking 46000 for 3000 fps.
 
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