I need Ideas

[north]

First things first, these things that have happened are terrible, but I want to stem off a blanket policy that will make owning firearms more difficult at my Base. I solicit your help to that end. Now the story...

My squadron of 500+ people has had 3 firearm related injuries in the last 7 months, including one death. The details are sketchy on the last two, but the first one was two people playing that STUPID trust game. Then on the second incident, the death was the person that got shot in the trust game, this time he died and the shooter is charged with murder. Today an Airman goes home for lunch and somehow gets shot in the thigh with his shotgun with his wife and father in the apartment.

Understandably, my Commander is pissed and concerned about guns and gun safety. It is bad enough loosing someone, but at home station for no reason is hard to deal with. Higher Head Quarters is going to come down on our Squadron like a ton of bricks.

This evening I had to recall all of my people and give them a gun safety briefing. before that, I attended a meeting where there were already calls to make people interview with the Commander before they would be allowed to purchase guns. They were talking about gun-locks and and registrations, even for people living off-base. And of course a repeat of the the first briefing from Local Law Enforcement and the Base Security about gun safety and local laws.

I was one of a few that tried to argue that education is a good thing; but gun locks, registration, and Commander interviews are not going to stop stupid people doing stupid things with firearms. I made the analogy to DWI's, people will still get them no matter how many times you tell them not to drink and drive. It is a personal responsibility to safely handle your weapons. I suggested getting some real firearms trainers to brief safety to the squadron members and I will be contacting some local trainers I know over the weekend to try to set something up quick.

I can't think a better group of people to help me come up with ideas to actually help my squadron members with firearm safety and to help stem off stupid rules that will not help anyone.

One thing I think I can sell to the Commander is a voluntary NRA course that the squadron pays for.

Please don't comment on how stupid these incidents are, that is self evident and will get this thread closed. Please give me ideas for how to help my squadron move forward in a positive way.
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[Tim the student]

I think it all comes down to discipline, and lots and lots of training on the basics.

I just got out not long ago, and I know that in my unit (Army, not Air Force), anyone who had a ND (even with blanks) got a field grade, unless there was a problem with the weapon.

That said, you can't fix stupid, but you can make stupid be really, really, tiring. Nothing like a good old smoke and puke session to help establish some muscle memory - that is, my muscles remember when I start to do something I shouldn't.

Good luck, I really hope you can stop this.

 

[Sunray]

Squadron Leaders and Base Commanders aren't the same thing. From what I understand about American military bases, of any Service, personnel firearms must be secured with the Meatheads(CF term for MP's). On base registration is normal. No personal firearms in quarters either.
"...my Commander is pissed... You think? If his people were playing with firearms that they shouldn't have access to and somebody got hurt, he's in for a world of excrement. Excrement flows down hill. Especially after that idiot Major killed all those people at Ft Hood.
What you can do depends entirely on your rank. No offence, but you sound like you have no rank. You get to do what you're told and have no say in anything. You signed away a lot of your rights when you joined.
Now, after all that, is there a Base Rod & Gun club? You a member? Get 'em to run a hunter's safety course. It won't make any difference though.
"...that the squadron pays for..." Don't be rediculous. Budgets are tighter than a frog's butt.

 

[Floppy_D]

PM'ed.

 

[Tim the student]

Squadron Leaders and Base Commanders aren't the same thing. From what I understand about American military bases, of any Service, personnel firearms must be secured with the Meatheads(CF term for MP's). On base registration is normal. No personal firearms in quarters either.

I never registered, or had any weapons anywhere near MP's - legally. I lived off post however, but often took my weapons on post. It was legal for me. I haven't heard of any mandatory gun registration back at Bragg either (post idiot doc shootings.) Soldiers that lived in the barracks could either secure their weapons in the unit arms room, or some other lawful place.

My PA had a boatload of guns in his quarters. I fail to believe that he would risk his career for something like that.

Things may have certainly changed drastically since I got out, but I haven't heard of all guns needing to be registered or anything like that. I just looked the Ft. Bragg reg on guns, and it hasn't been updated.

 

[north]

Sunray, I have enough rank to be heard. 18 years in and a Senior NCO.

All of these incidents occurred off base, which is legal here in the USA since we decided a King shouldn't rule us.

Don't worry about our budget, we take care of our own. I am sure that I can get a solid training class funded.

 

[navyretired 1]

North I was 28 years in and the Command Senior and don't know if I could get some positive preventive action going in today's nervous leadership invirionment. The knee-jerk reaction is going to overwelm a senior enlisted like your not there. I'd be willing to bet that Senior Officer head or heads will roll. This is a bad time right after that idiot at Bragg and the lack of identifying a pressure cooker ready to explode.
Sounds like your doing your best and good luck but it's probably way above your paygrade now. Please excuse my spelling as it's 0300 and this sounded important. We had a E-4 who hung himself over a deployment and a girl. The Doc, Command Master Chief, and His Division Officer were history as he'd ask for help and everyone was too busy getting ready for deployment. Good Luck Shipmate, I really think that people should be armed and ready and crap like Bragg wouldn't happen.Ya can't fix stupid

 

[Sackett]

Did I understand correctly that the same person was involved in BOTH of the first 2 incidents? Too many unhelpful comments come to mind if that's the case(<---restraint).
But that says something significant about the incidents- if getting bit once wasn't sufficient to make them twice shy, I doubt any level of training or admonishment would have had an impact with this individual.

I'd support lots of training- that never hurts. But interviews, locks, and registration is obviously knee-jerk and wouldn't have stopped these incidents in the least, based on your description. The culture needs to change-- anyone mishandling a gun or being unsafe needs to become a pariah to those around him. Put out the word to begin 'self-policing' each other with the 4 rules as a basis. In the end, people need to decide that it's not to be tolerated. Even then, a certain percentage may fall off the bell-curve. Unfortunate, yes. But it's the price we pay for having the choice.

Hope you can find a way to truly improve the situation without losing freedom. That's ultimately the trade-off. I live in CA, where that choice was made for us long ago, and believe me it sucks.

Thanks for your what you do.

 

[shockwave]

Here's another vote for an NRA course. They aren't gods, and they aren't perfect, but the NRA does have one of the longest-established firearms safety courses in the business. The only way you can have an accidental shooting is for someone to be pointing a gun at themselves or someone else.

 

[Superlite27]

Hello North,
Thanks for your service. I was in 2nd Armored Div. at Fort Hood after Gulf1. Just a lowly E-5 tank gunner here.

I'm not sure about any "programs". I guess an NRA course would be beneficial. I, personally, don't recall any other method than what the military taught me while I was in the Army. No "four rules" or anything. Maybe this would be a benefit.

As with anything, familiarity breeds contempt. After being surrounded by guns, day in, day out, it is probably no surprise that soldiers will develop a "Hey, I know, I know. Safety this, safety that. Blah, blah, blah." attitude.

I would love nothing more than to be the one to offer up "the miracle cure", but I have nothing better than you can probably come up with yourself. The only thing I can add in an attempt to be somewhat helpful is to point out to your subordinates, if there's ever an opportunity to address them "en masse", that they have signed up to serve, fight, and many of their fellows have died, to protect the rights of American citizens. By irresponsible use of firearms, they are endangering the very thing many of them have given their lives to protect. They have sworn "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic........

Well, participating in unsafe acts may cause stricter regulations. This is in direct opposition to the oath they all swore. This behavior makes them a "domestic" enemy of the Constitution. The very thing they swore, and others have died, to protect.

Maybe this outlook will help instill in them the desire to avoid irresponsibility with firearms.

 

[Artiz]

which is legal here in the USA since we decided a King shouldn't rule us.

You should know better.

 

[hso]

I'd continue to use the military DWI program as the model to follow. Training like that in the DWI program, leadership meetings with all the ranks, use each of these incidents as examples and be rigorous in dissecting them and brutally honest in presenting them. Don't pull any punches about the deaths and murder charges.

Since the NRA is the most obvious source of training, I'd continue to pursue that route, but as a senior NCO you could conduct the initial training while the NRA trainer is found.

 

[hammerklavier]

There needs to be very serious punishment for the person holding the gun in a trust game.

 

[wishin]

While the NRA has a very good course, IMO anyone in your unit, including yourself, who has a good understanding of weapons and gun safety can conduct classes. It's not rocket science. I propose periodic mandatory classes, perhaps monthly, for all members of the unit. Include hands on training of course, but it should be strictly geared toward safety and not marksmanship. Thanks for your service.

 

[Labyrinth666]

Well, I would make them all run through a course and show me that they can handle their guns properly by assembling, disassembling, cleaning, reloading, storing, and shooting safely. At the start I would leave the empty guns on tables and in just a few of them I would chamber a blank, so if they think it is unloaded and don't actually check themselves, a blank will go off and scare the **** out of them, causing them to remember the lesson.

Oh and be sure to make a poem, short song, rhyme, or just small list of steps for them to remember. It may seem stupid now, but it will be easy to remember later (especially if you makethem hear and repeat it hundreds of times).

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I was in a long long time ago, 65 - 68. I've not heard of the 'trust game' before. From the above descriptions, it must be truly moronic, but would someone care to give me a synopsis of it?

Thanks, 900F

 

[hso]

Think "Russian Roulette" with a semi auto in the hands of another person. Absolutely moronic practice that has sprung up.

 

[jnyork]

This "trust" game is just insane, any soldier proposing or participating in such idiocy should be very harshly punished, all levels of command need to bear down hard on this. Where the hell did this come from in the first place?

 

[Labyrinth666]

What are you trusting? That there isn't one in the chamber?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

... but the first one was two people playing that STUPID trust game.

I shudder to think what that might be.

Perhaps you could say that if someone is going to engage in incredibly reckless and dangerous behavior like this (no doubt fueled by alcohol), if you take away the guns, they would find some other way to get themselves killed.

 

[Superlite27]

Russian Roulette...with an auto?

Really?


I'll put my money on player #2.

Why does such a game even exist? In order for there to be the concept of "gaming" there must first be some type of challenge or chance. Where is the challenge? Automatic firearm? Player #1 loses. Every time.

It's like gambling if the book I drop will hit the floor. Only this won't kill me. Much better "game" if you ask me.

It is a very sick world we're living in.

 

[Wingnut13]

North,

After being in the AF (now full time Guard) I can't stand all the stupid rules that would pop up after one person would do whatever. I think you thinking right about it, NRA course for those who own/handle firearms. Whatever you do..... no more CBT's.

That "trust" game is the dumbest thing I've heard of. Punishment is certainly due there.

~Wingnut13

 

[hammerklavier]

So you pull the magazine slightly out so "theoretically" no round can be loaded. Then you walk up to someone, rack the slide, point it at their head and say "Do you trust me?" Then you pull the trigger.

A few years in jail and a dishonorable should do it (provided no one was killed), and something pretty stiff for anyone who doesn't report it.

 

[Victor1Echo]

This "trust" game is just insane, any soldier proposing or participating in such idiocy should be very harshly punished, all levels of command need to bear down hard on this. Where the hell did this come from in the first place?

This is the problem. Anyone who would play this game is highly unstable. You need to address this problem. Section 8? Was that unfit for militarty service? Pointing a gun at someone's head is against everything we are taught--and shows a blatant disregard for human life.

 

[jad0110]

While the NRA has a very good course, IMO anyone in your unit, including yourself, who has a good understanding of weapons and gun safety can conduct classes. It's not rocket science. I propose periodic mandatory classes, perhaps monthly, for all members of the unit. Include hands on training of course, but it should be strictly geared toward safety and not marksmanship. Thanks for your service.

I agree with this. Wouldn't cost anything out of your budget, and you wouldn't have to go through the procurement chain. You can certainly do a little "market research", but don't commit or obligate your unit to anything, as I assume you aren't a warranted contracting officer.

Since the NRA is the most obvious source of training, I'd continue to pursue that route, but as a senior NCO you could conduct the initial training while the NRA trainer is found.

But since they are not the only source, it might be tough justifying a sole source contract to them for the training (see Federal Acquisition Reg Part 6.302). Might, because I'm not sure of the dollar amount for this course, which does effect what regs one follows.

north,

If that is a route your unit is thinking of pursuing, be sure to speak to your primary procurement/contracting office or training department as early as possible about how to go about doing it legally.