I noticed something about powders

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MCgunner

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I was shooting my Navy yesterday, switching back and forth between light loads of Pyrodex and 777. I noticed something. Pyrodex, which other than it's harder to ignite is hard for me to tell the difference in BP, shoots with the typical "boom" which a BP gun should. 777 shoots with the crack of a smokeless gun. The boom is why I got addicted to BP in the first place. I know 777 shoots cleaner, shoots harder (not applicable in the light loads for a brasser), and is easier to clean up, but the boom and of course the sulfur smelll of Pyrodex (or BP if I could get it) is what I like about BP revolvers.

Maybe I understand a bit more why folks that can get it prefer the holy black. For my inline, I don't care, don't think of it as anything, but a modern firearm that happens to not need cases when reloading. But, for my cap and ball stuff, toys and not really tools, I like the esthetics of BP....if I could get it, but Pyrodex is a close twin.
 
If you are getting a "crack" rather than a "boom" that often indicates your projectile has gone supersonic, and thus (especially with 777) that your load is too large.

It is important to follow load directions - for example Pyro can be substituted at the same volume as BP, but per Hodgen, 777 must be reduced by 15% -

in fact the Hodgen site only recommends a 25 gr load of 777 in a steel .44 Remmy for 763 fps and 35 gr in a ROA for nearly 1000 fps.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on

This suggests that the 15% reduction is not really enough:
If one uses a 35 gr load (by volume) of BP in a Remmy .44 a 15% reduction for 777 would be 30 gr.
If one uses a 40 gr load (by volume) of BP in a Remmy .44 a 15% reduction for 777 would be 34 gr.

It is difficult to go supersonic with real BP in a revolver, but it is easier with 777 Since 777 is a quasi-smokeless BP substitute with greater energies.

as I understand it, 777 was actually designed as a "cleaner high performance BP substitute originally for inline rifles.

shoot safe
yhs
shunka
 
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Recomended loads for the Navy are 25 grains of 3F. I am shooting 20 grains of 777 or Pyrodex in the gun in consideration of the frame material. No, the bullet is not supersonic. I guess "crack" wasn't the right word. I shoulda said "POW" vs the "BOOM" of the Pyrodex. I've been shooting 50 years now, know what a high velocity rifle bullet crack sounds like. I've got a .257 Roberts, a .308 Winchester, and a 7mm Rem Mag in my collection of serious hunting rifles.

You can easily get BP by ordering it online.
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....you left out the hazmat charge. I would buy it locally, but I won't order the stuff. If i burned a pound a week, I might think about a bulk order when I can get my hands on the money, but I don't burn a pound a year.
 
I dont get this, "I won't pay a hazmat charge." Do you honestly think you're NOT paying the hazmat charge when you buy it locally? Your local dealer certainly pays it when he orders it shipped to him; do you think he's running some sort of charity and not passing that along to you?
 
THe most economical way to buy B-P is by 25 LB case lots. I buy mine from an explosives company here in PA. I can drive to the magazine and pick it up, or have it delivered for $20.

If you don't want to foot the bill for 25 LBs, splitting it with two or three buddies is a good way to go. I usually get a mixed case of 2Fg and 3Fg and it lasts me for awhile.
 
I dont get this, "I won't pay a hazmat charge." Do you honestly think you're NOT paying the hazmat charge when you buy it locally? Your local dealer certainly pays it when he orders it shipped to him; do you think he's running some sort of charity and not passing that along to you?
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No, I don't think I'm NOT paying something, but if a local dealer buys 200 lbs, splits that 40 dollar or whate ever it is fee up 200 ways, hey, it ain't that much. Do the math. I won't pay 40 bucks or even 20 to ship ONE pound and I got no buddies that shoot BP, not that wanna split 25 lbs, anyway. :rolleyes: Guess I could bring it up in a gun club meeting, but not many shoot BP there, either. It ain't that popular down here since we don't have a BP hunting season..

Hell, it just ain't that important to me. If I wanna shoot BP (don't shoot flinters), Pyrodex works fine and is cheap enough.
 
i used to buy those, then put a stick on them and shove a fuse in the back. never could get them to fly straight, they might just be too powerful. but it still was fun! :D i also used shotgun powder in my homemade bottle rockets. when you do that they go up and don't seem to come down anyplace that i can find.

once you know how, making blackpowder isn't that hard. you just need to know the right proportions, have a scale, and a rock tumbler with some musket balls to help grind the stuff. i seriously made it when i was eight, it's not that hard to do! it worked in firecrackers and rockets just fine. the hardest part i guess is locating the saltpeter. but if you know where to look it shouldn't be that hard.
 
The reason Pyrodex sounds like black powder is because it is black powder. It is a sulfur, charcoal, KNO3 mix, with a bit of something else added to keep it from being classified as an explosive. By being classified as a flammable solid as opposed to explosive like BP, stores don't have to have special fireproof safes, and it can be shipped normally. Because of the added chemical, Pyrodex is usually a bit harder to ignite than black. I always seem to have a noticeable lag 'twixt cap fire and gun fire with Pyrodex.

The reason 777 sounds more like smokeless powder is because it is a smokeless powder designed to produce smoke, and have the more or less same burn speed and pressure as BP.

Making your own BP is simple enough, and if you have access to willow trees for charcoal, you can make a better BP than Goex.
 
Mine were actual model rockets, not bottle rockets. I was all into that when a pre-teen. I even built a rocket car, worked, but only with a guidance line. I always wanted to use a booster rocket, pack some BP in the nose of the thing, and make a shoulder held launcher out of PVC pipe, instant bazooka...or maybe stinger missile. :D Never did it, though. Probably a good thing as I did survive to grow up. :D

I even found sieves online for sieving the various grades, got some stuff filed and a site bookmarked, but I've not bothered with it. I'd rather just shoot pyrodex for now. Nothing wrong with pyrodex. It doesn't ignite quite as easily as BP, but it ain't THAT bad, goes bang every time in my revolvers. I have a small rifle primer mod on one of my Hawkens rifles and the other one, I just pull the nipple and dribble some in there for a priming charge when I load it. And, magnum Winchester caps help even without a primer charge.
 
The reason Pyrodex sounds like black powder is because it is black powder. It is a sulfur, charcoal, KNO3 mix, with a bit of something else added to keep it from being classified as an explosive.
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I have suspected this. Also, suspect that burn retardant they use is what makes it a little harder to ignite. Anyway, it works and it's cheap and on the shelves at about any LGS. 777 is GREAT, too, but doesn't have the smell and the BOOM. :D Sure is easier to clean up when I get home, though.
 
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so Triple Seven really is smokeless powder? it behaves like it. wouldn't surprise me if you are right.
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I wouldn't call it "smokeless". It smokes, but it's definitely NOT black and has no sulfur. It is very consistent in burn in my iinline and my revolvers and gives me greater velocities in my .31 and my ROA. I get a very consistent and accurate 1300 fps in the ROA using a 220 conical with a compressed charge of 777. I get about 900 fps in the Remington .31 pocket with a 60 grain conical. I don't load the Navy brasser hot, so that advantage doesn't matter in it. In fact, for most shooting, I download the ROA and .31, too. No need for the power, just good to know the stuff has it if I want/need it for some odd reason. I would load the ROA hot if using it for hunting. Main thing about 777 I like in the revolvers is accuracy and clean up ease.
 
I like 777 very much, but not as much as the real thing. Like you say, it just doesn't "sound right." In spite of what some say, it does give a pretty good flame also, I just didn't have my camera that evening to film it.

If I was ever limited to subs, it would either be Pyro Pistol, or 777.
 
Mykeal, not arguing, but that's what I read somewhere and just assumed was true. You know how them assumptions go.
 
It probably is a nitrocellulose based powder, I'm guessing, if that article called it "smokeless". Anyway, whatever, it's a viable substitute and has great advantages if you're looking for a hunting powder, very accurate and powerful. It also cleans up easy and my hands don't get all sooty and stinky, not that it matters. That's why God gave us soap and water. :D Heck, I'm a mechanic. I've been a lot dirtier than from shooting BP/Pyrodex. :D
 
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